Back again - Dual Regulator Battery Issue

[scott_va]

Ok, I have been working on an issue in my Summit SBC490BI Twin Tap that uses a M/M Premium Dual Regulator Battery. The issue I continue to have is the second regulator seems to be misbehaving.

Beer pour temp is pretty consistent 36-38 F, 5' 3/16" ID beer line, and the keg on the first regulator pours fine ("full circle" from the faucet). Second regulator, same gauge pressure (12-14 lbs) - not so much.

What I have done so far to diagnose:

1) Cleaned all the lines/couplers/faucets thoroughly.

2) Replaced the rubber check valve in the coupler.

3) Removed coupler from first keg and put on the second keg. When the gas it turned back on, a whoosh can be heard as gas enters the keg. Doesn't do this when the coupler is connected to the second regulator.

4) Removed the couplers and pulled the pressure relief valves on the couplers. The sound of the first coupler bleeding gas is noticeably louder than the second coupler.

5) Removed the gas line on the second coupler, cranked the pressure up to 25-30lbs and burped the line using the regulator on/off valve. Didn't have any real effect.

6) Removed the couplers, put them in the down/open position to check the gas leaving the coupler. Again, first coupler is noticeably louder/more forceful, even when 2nd coupler is set to 18-20lbs and first coupler is 12-14lbs.

The regulator is only a couple months old. From asking around I am told the regulator should be supplying equal pressure to both regulators when they are at the same gauge reading, meaning they should sound approximately the same when they are being bled. I'm starting to think I have a bum regulator battery. The documentation doesn't mention anything about a check valve that might be stuck, but it mentions a filter screen. I would imagine that the filter on the first regulator would have caught any debris since the tank was new, and then the first regulator would be having issues too.

Another post I came across said 2nd regulators can get funny if both are run at the same pressure. Is that true? My sales guy at M/M said if the regulators are to run different pressures, the 2nd one should have the greater pressure. I did bump up the pressure just to get more than a trickle out of the keg, but it still doesn't *sound* like it pushing more pressure.

Anything else I can try? I'd rather not have to take the regulator battery apart since it is almost new and I don't want to mess it up permanently. I'm considering ordering a different regulator batter - TapRite T752HP - just to see if the regulator is indeed the problem.

Thanks for the help!

[KillianBoy]

scott_va,
I'm not sure which is 1 or 2 so I attached a picture of the regulator that you said you have, from what I guess your 1 is my 2 but I have make sure.
The second picture is of the CO2 filter, the replacement parts section says it on the nut side of the regulator (usually connected to CO2 tank on single dispense, on 2 dispense, also on #1 connection to #2).
Again my worry is that you may have damaged the regulator by keeping mounted upside down for extended periods of time.
Whether bum or damaged it seems one isn't working properly, you may not have any choice, if doesn't work and you don't want send back, you may have to open it.
You can try and makes sure the lips on the gas check come apart (sometimes can get stuck by beer). Then check gauge by turning up to 45 PSI and leave (you don't have to vent gas) for several minutes maybe an hour, then turn down to under 10 PSI for same amount of time, then back to high then to low and see if that loosens up the regulator. If this doesn't work you may have to take apart the regulator (at least separate the 2 and check filter).
Yes, if you have a 2 dispense regulator you might have problems adjusting, but only if you have a primary AND a secondary, by what you posted you just have a primary and shouldn't have any problems.
KB


642-Battery.jpg3500138.jpg

[scott_va]

KB - thanks for the picture. My sick regulator is #1 - the one farthest from the C02. I'll first try to crank up the regulator to 45 PSI as you described, and back down again a few times. If I end up taking it apart, is there any reason I can't reverse the nut fitting for the CO2 and the tank level gauge? That would get me close to having a right-side-up regulator battery since my tank mounts on the left of my kegerator. The tank level gauge will still be upside down, but at least the regulators themselves would be oriented correctly. I believe the fittings are right-hand threaded - do you have any information on that?

I will get back to you with my results.

Thanks

[KillianBoy]

scott_va,
It should be a standard thread fitting and not reverse (rightly tightly, lefty loosely) , could be MM is tightening down more because of complaints of CO2 leaks between the 2 regulators. If upside down should be the same, if upside down, maybe by righting it, solve your problem? I have a standard regulator and directions says:

"reducer (regulator) MUST (my capitals) be mounted on the gas cylinder valve in a way that the outlet of the reducer (regulator) is adjustable downward."

So if still downward, if you can't get it right side up and see if it makes a difference with tank inside, then try to separate regulators and clear filter and mount outside.


I still can't understand this left side, right side thing (no pictures), I take of a Haier, I think a MM regulator should fit (vertically) in a Haier (shelf on left side), again if you have problems fitting CO2 tank inside, you may have to mount outside.
KB

[scott_va]

As a built-in unit, attempting to mount the CO2 outside is a major hassle. The Summit is a 24" under-counter unit so I don't really have a convenient place to put a CO2 + large dual regulator outside the kegerator. If I try to hide it in an adjacent cabinet it will be difficult to get to and read. Plus, Summit claimed they didn't have any schematics of the cooling lines in the body of the kegerator, and basically said drill at your own risk. If I were to attempt that, wouldn't I need both CO2 lines coming into the Summit from outside? And I guess enough slack to allow the unit to be pulled out for maintenance without disturbing everything. Arghhh, I'd prefer to leave the CO2 inside if I can!

I don't understand why Summit would make the shelf on the left if all the regs are made to mount to the left of the CO2.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go ahead pull apart the regulator for grins. Hopefully it will be something obvious.

Scott

[scott_va]

@KillianBoy - per your instructions for the 45 PSI test, is that with regulator on/off valve off? Or coupler off the keg? If I leave the coupler connected, won't it blow my keg up to leave it at 45 PSI for an hour?

Thanks!

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

You wont blow anything up at 45PSI unless you have bad connections or weak hoses . I believe the coupler pressure relief valves blowout at 55PSI anyway. So no worries.

[scott_va]

Aren't I risking of over-carbing the keg at 45 PSI? Does it accomplish the same thing just to turn the regulator on/off valve off and crank the pressure to 45 PSI? Or is this testing something in the coupler/keg as well as the regulator?

If I push 45 PSI into the keg for an hour, I assume I should vent the coupler pressure relief after the hour to return the keg to 10 PSI... I'll wait to hear back before I proceed...

Thanks

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Aren't I risking of over-carbing the keg at 45 PSI? Does it accomplish the same thing just to turn the regulator on/off valve off and crank the pressure to 45 PSI? Or is this testing something in the coupler/keg as well as the regulator?

If I push 45 PSI into the keg for an hour, I assume I should vent the coupler pressure relief after the hour to return the keg to 10 PSI... I'll wait to hear back before I proceed...

Thanks

Sorry I didn't read back to see what you were doing.. I think you can accomplish this with it not hooked up to keg.Just make sure coupler handle is in up position.

[scott_va]

Ok - I think I know what the problem is. I decided to pull the regulator out and have a look at it. After I disconnected everything and got it on the bench to work on it, I noticed the "sick" regulator is stuck at 12 PSI on the gauge. The other regulator reads 0 PSI. regulator_issue.jpg

If it was reading 12-14 PSI I was probably pushing 0-2 PSI into the keg. Doh!

Once or twice when I vented the keg I noticed the gauge didn't drop to 0, but I thought that had something to do with the system being balanced or whatever. Still learning!

I've followed up with sales about getting an exchange or repair.

Thanks for the help everybody!

Cheers,
Scott

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Ok - I think I know what the problem is. I decided to pull the regulator out and have a look at it. After I disconnected everything and got it on the bench to work on it, I noticed the "sick" regulator is stuck at 12 PSI on the gauge. The other regulator reads 0 PSI. [ATTACH=CONFIG]2638[/ATTACH]

If it was reading 12-14 PSI I was probably pushing 0-2 PSI into the keg. Doh!

Once or twice when I vented the keg I noticed the gauge didn't drop to 0, but I thought that had something to do with the system being balanced or whatever. Still learning!

I've followed up with sales about getting an exchange or repair.

Thanks for the help everybody!

Cheers,
Scott

Those guages backplates bend if you sneeze on them,then the needle sticks and your F'd... They are very temperamental.Would think they would make them a little more robust.Seen them Time and Time again be bent right from MM.

[scott_va]

M/M is sending a replacement gauge. In the meantime, I separated the two units and the filters looked clean to the naked eye. I put everything back together and added 12 PSI to what was showing on the stuck gauge. When I opened the on/off valve on the regulator, I got a nice "whoosh" sound as gas rushed into the limping keg. I will let it sit a bit and then do some "test" pours. It must be five o'clock someplace!

Cheers

[KillianBoy]

scott_va,
You really have to get your regulator upright, you did say at one point that you were able to adjust both gauges, by mounting upside down you could be damaging the regulator.

If you need help drilling, search forum, drilling in back is problematic, you have to be precise and know where everything is before drilling, sides not so much so, just search.
Don't know what you mean by:
"I don't understand why Summit would make the shelf on the left if all the regs are made to mount to the left of the CO2."
I still don't know why you can't use the CO2 tank shelf and why you have to have the gauge on the right and not left, by mounting upside down moisture can get to the most sensitive part of the regulator.

The Haier should be identical to yours and I have no problems with adjustment with a 1/2 keg inside.

We went though this thing about high PSI not a problem if only for a short time, you can do as PointPleasantNJBeerguy says and leave lever up but basically this was a check to see if the needle moves, if moves, then back and forth might clear regulator, beer won't overcarb by an hour or so at high PSI.
KB

[scott_va]

The problem was the gauge reads 12 PSI when it is really at 0 PSI. Until I get the new gauge from M/M I simply added 12 PSI to it and it works like a charm. Both sides get a "full round" pour from their faucets. I'm pretty confident the entire problem had to do with me pushing 0-2 lbs into the keg because I thought it was pushing 12-14 lbs, based on the faulty gauge. The sales guy at M/M talked with the manufacturing rep regarding the upside down mounting issue and said it shouldn't be an issue, although the ends could be swapped to allow the unit to mount to the right of the CO2 if I chose to do that. The reason I can't mount it to the default left of the CO2 is because Summit put the shelf in the left rear and therefore my CO2 is against the left rear wall. In that configuration the regulator must come forward along the left side wall (in upright orientation), or extend along the rear wall in front of the cold plate (in upside down orientation). I tried the side wall position but it doesn't leave enough room for my two kegs side by side.

I think I'm good now, but will keep an eye on things and report back if the problem resurfaces.

I do have another question regarding balancing however. I read that the 3/16" beer line is good for 3 lbs of resistance per foot. Since I have a dual tap tower, I have those skinny little elbows behind the faucets. I am also running the 90 deg beer line coupler elbow. Do I need to calculate those into the equation as extra "restriction" on the beer line? I think I'm in the ball park as far as balancing, but I wasn't sure about the elbows.

Thanks!

[scott_va]

After weeks of cursing at the kegerator, and a potential solution in sight, I thought it would be a good idea to test my hypothesis and exercise the regulator thoroughly. In the interest of science, I pulled out my mug and started pouring. Here are pics of the 3rd and 4th, ahem, test. I feel like a kid in a candy store! Full-bore pour and perfect head - Woohoo!! The beer is Dominion Dortmunder Lager. I hope my results help somebody else out there. If you need me to do more testing, just let me know! Lol.

3rd_pour_800x450.jpg4th_pour_800x450.jpg

Cheers!