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Never Ending Foam Problem

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  • Never Ending Foam Problem

    I was on here back in July fighting a foam problem. I got my first keg of the year with my college housemates this weekend and we struggled with foam once again. I received a lot of advice on the last thread, and I followed it pretty closely. However, I still struggled with foam.

    We bought the kegerator off kids who used to live in the college house before us. They converted an old fridge using a kit from another site.

    Basically, I'm running keystone at 39 degrees and 14 psi. I was told the v/v is 2.65-2.75 so that means I should be running 14 psi. I have an 8 foot beer line, and I recently cleaned the entire system. I bought the keg Wednesday night and set the psi. I had to adjust it once on Thursday morning because I realized that it was only set to 12 and not 14. We didnt drink the keg until Friday night, and we were getting entire pitchers of foam that we had to wait several minutes for it to turn into beer.

    Does anyone have other advice as to what I could be doing wrong?

  • #2
    deanger1,
    Sooo, where did you get the 2.65-2.75 v/v from? Is the thermometer calibrated? Is the beer line 3/16 ID? Did the foam never end from the keg you had problems with till now (every single keg is foamy)? How did you clean your gear, BLC, brushes, disassemble,etc? All parts the same as the old one you inherited, did you inspect and clean those parts? What is you altitude? I'm not sure I asked this before but is the refrigerator a standard cold air and not a cold plate refrigerator?
    Next post can you answer these questions and describe your pour, normal is flash of white then clear beer color, if thermometer is calibrated, can you post to the XX.X degree. Have you tried to pour a little beer off in a small cup, then try and pour individual glasses? Beer poured. on foam can cause massive foam
    KB
    Last edited by KillianBoy; 09-09-2012, 04:56 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I got the 2.65-2.75 v/v from you back In July. This is the first keg I bought since I was on here with you back then. I cleaned the entire system with BLC and brushes, and i disassembled it completely. I believe the fridge is a standard cold air fridge. When I put the thermometer in ice water it read 4 degrees celsius (It's a celsius only thermometer) so I just convert whatever temp I take of the beer to fahrenheit. The beer line is 3/16 ID.

      The pour is all white. I pull the faucet and the it looks entirely like foam.

      Comment


      • #4
        deanger1
        I dug up 2 posts I made;
        "I think Keystone is a Coors product and has a v/v of 2.9, depending on where it was kegged and also your elevation above sea level. None of this matters until you have the actual temperature of the beer"

        "v/v of a Coors product is 2.7-2.75 for beer brewed outside of Golden (I have to double check that, any member who has an idea of v/v for Keystone please chime in)"

        Killian's and Blue Moon are Coors products and both are 2.75 v/v so I would go with 2.75, best to contact brewery and see what that say. Elevation has no effect on your beer, I found it was near sea level last time. Try and get a digital thermometer preferably one that goes both ways, conversation is 39.2 degrees.
        If your beer is all white then something is irritating the beer, either gear isn't as clean as you say (but I will take your word for it). If this keg and previous keg just as foamy, then something is damaged or missing. Check for all your washers, there should be 2 on bottom of coupler, then one between beer line and coupler. If you can post pictures but if you see one washer then the other is missing, probe washer missing will cause the symptom you are describing.
        Another member said he had massive foam, his coupler looked like this, this is missing a washer, without this part beer and CO2 will mix uncontrollably, causing foam and if your numbers are right and temperature is taken with a calibrated thermometer properly than I would set at 15 as low as 14.5.
        KB
        Attached Files
        Last edited by KillianBoy; 09-09-2012, 07:14 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          KillianBoy,
          Once this keg is kicked I'll take pictures of my coupler and other gear to show you. In the summer before i consulted your help I guessed the pressure and ran the keg at 8 psi. The pour was great but the beer tasted a little flat. I was shocked when I got my thermometer and saw that the temperature showed i should be running 14 psi. Maybe my thermometer is severely uncalibrated and 14 psi is actually too high. I'm going to get another thermometer to take the temp with.

          Also, question about adjusting pressure. When I took the temp and adjusted the pressure, if I were to turn the pressure down on the regulator, do I close the gas line to the keg, turn off the gas in the tank, release the pressure in the regulator, open the tank again, then reset the regulator at the pressure I want, and open the line and the pressure will set itself? Or do I need to bleed out pressure from the keg itself in order to lower the pressure? Basically I'm asking if I can lower the pressure when I already have it set at something too high just by adjusting the pressure knob

          Comment


          • #6
            deanger1,
            Setting pressure depends, my Chinese-made regulator is really temperamental, I tug on the pressure relief valve couple of times, then reset the PSI to what I want. MM and US made regulators, usually just set. In both US and foreign made you don't have to turn any valves off while adjusting PSI. When you mount keg, turn the valve on tank full on, then valve under regulator dial parallel to gas line and that's it till keg runs dry, then turn both off, then replace keg.
            I would try to check coupler ASAP, you will never get a good pour till it's checked, white pour is really bad, either dirty gear, improper set-up or missing washers. If you want to wait and you can get rid of keg in less than a week, then set to 6 PSI and pray it doesn't go flat, if waiting for keg to run dry make sure the gas comes from side and beer from top (standard coupler) and when keg kicks, inspect every washer, make sure you have each one (if you have questions go to the replacement parts in the store, if not ask on forum), if you can post pictures, it would help solve your problem as it did with the member that posted this picture.
            KB
            Last edited by KillianBoy; 09-10-2012, 03:28 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              "I think Keystone is a Coors product and has a v/v of 2.9, depending on where it was kegged and also your elevation above sea level. None of this matters until you have the actual temperature of the beer"

              "v/v of a Coors product is 2.7-2.75 for beer brewed outside of Golden (I have to double check that, any member who has an idea of v/v for Keystone please chime in)"

              All Miller Coors products are now 2.7 regardless of where they are brewed .
              Last edited by spdbump; 09-11-2012, 07:27 AM.
              Colin Harrison
              Dbi Beverage Chico

              Comment


              • #8
                KillianBoy,
                Okay wait now im confused. When I tap the keg, i always have the gas off and gas line closed. I tap the keg and the coupler locks into place. then I turn on my co2 tank, but the gas line is closed. I adjust the regulator to the psi I want, and then once it's set, i open the gas line to allow the co2 to run into the keg. You said "turn the valve perpendicular to the gas line" which means turning off the flow of co2 to the keg. So you're saying the gas line is not supposed to on while I'm pouring beers? I'm confused

                Comment


                • #9
                  KillianBoy,
                  Also, I just used a high-tech very expensive thermometer to take the temperature of the beer. I poured all foam and I immediately put the thermometer into the liquid and the thermometer went to 28 degrees F, and then climbed quickly to around 33 F. And then it slowly climbed up to around 37 F when I let the thermometer sit in there for around a minute or two. I was careful to make sure the apparatus did not touch the glass of the cup. I also took a reading inside of the fridge of a cup of water and the temperature fluctuated from around 34.3 to 35.4 F. I was using a very very expensive and accurate thermometer so there is no way it is not calibrated. I'm just confused why the temperature fluctuated so much

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You need to take the temperture of the beer, not the foam. Foam will give you a bad reading. The cost of a thermometer has nothing to do with it's calibration. We calibrate our thermometers at work every 6 months, and at times they need to be tweaked. It will take you 10 minutes and a cup of crushed ice and water to ensure your readings are good.

                    Not sure which KB post you are reading, but you must be reading it wrong. The CO2 is always open when a keg is operating. You should also burp the keg using the pressure relief when you tap it, so you eliminate any excess pressure to ensure you are applying the pressure you think you are.

                    The fact the glass of water changes temperature isn't surprising, it has no thermal mass to keep the temp constant. The air in the box is the most volatile and will fluctuate a lot, the cup of water is the second most volatile, the keg is the most stable.

                    When you look at the beer lines in the unit, are they full of beer or foam?
                    What I have: Haier two tap, 525 faucets, tower cooler, 10' lines

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      djc,
                      The thermometer is used in a chemistry laboratory on a regular basis so that's why I said it's extremely accurate.The beer line is full of beer it only becomes foamy when I begin to pour. Some of my later temperature readings I collected when the foam disappeared and beer began to form on the bottom of the cup.

                      As for burping the keg.... you're saying when I tap the keg, before I apply my own pressure, I should release the pressure from the keg entirely? Is that what you mean you say burp the keg?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        deanger1 wrote:

                        do I close the gas line to the keg, turn off the gas in the tank, release the pressure in the regulator, open the tank again, then reset the regulator at the pressure I want, and open the line and the pressure will set itself? Or do I need to bleed out pressure from the keg itself in order to lower the pressure?

                        KB responded:

                        In both US and foreign made you don't have to turn any valves off while adjusting PSI. When you mount keg, turn the valve on tank full on, then valve under regulator dial parallel to gas line and that's it till keg runs dry, then turn both off, then replace keg.

                        The question was asked and answered before you can have regulator valve open or closed when you adjust PSI, I do it open others have done it closed (maybe I should do it closed), but it’s been concluded , that it doesn’t matter as long as the main CO2 valve is open when you do the adjusting.
                        deanger1,
                        I don't know part of "I tug on the pressure relief valve couple of times" you don't understand, I didn't say release all CO2, just lower it a bit, but again that's for my Chinese-made regulator, if you were turning regulator valve off, then adjusting, then turning back on and it doesn't move after turning on then you should be fine but if PSI changes when you turn back on then do what I do, pull pressure release once (valve should be spring loaded), hiss release then stop hissing, pull again, hiss release then stop hissing, the PSI should be below 10 PSI, the adjust accordingly.
                        And what djc said, we are not saying the your thermometer is bad, just it doesn't hurt to check, foam is weird, when I take the temperature I have the entire probe is sitting in beer the foam is hitting the housing and should not be more than 1 inch when taking the temperature, if more the foam might alter the reading that you are getting. Water in a glass will fluctuate wildly because it's such a small mass (compared to the keg of beer). I have frozen large Gatorade bottle, had skating rinks on glasses of water but poured 38 degree beer. The only thing you should be worried about is the temperature of the beer, in a proper glass taken properly.
                        Again I think either you are missing a probe washer or keg seal is bad (either coupler or keg), but foam will not go away until this is checked, pictures of the coupler (top side, bottom) will help diagnosis your problem, but I guarantee your foam will not go away until coupler and keg seal are not checked.
                        Sorry I meant parallel and not perpendicular sometimes I get turned around when I write fast
                        To Colin,
                        Thanks for the update, when the Carbonation Thread returns you can update, last I heard Blue Moon was 2.75 and that was from Scott, thanks for the "chime"
                        KB
                        Last edited by KillianBoy; 09-10-2012, 04:20 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Deanger, when you cleaned the set up, did you check the two little breather holes in the faucet? If they are plugged or cruddy it will cause foam. Did you take the faucet all the way down to it's pieces while cleaning and check the o-rings? I still think you should check the thermometer, most of us do as a matter of course, but if you think you can skip that 10 minute step, then so be it. History would say things aren't going so well for you and it may help get to the bottom of it.
                          What I have: Haier two tap, 525 faucets, tower cooler, 10' lines

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            djc,
                            When I cleaned the faucet, I took the entire thing apart and looked at a diagram that KillianBoy referred me to in order to make sure everything was there. The fact that I have beer in my line and I'm pouring foam makes me really believe it has to be something with the faucet. I have a keg tapped right now so once it's empty ill take apart the whole system and clean it again for my next keg (hopefully thursday). At that time I'll post pics of my coupler like Killian boy asked, and Ill post faucet pics as well.Thanks again for all your help

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              deanger1,
                              When you said:
                              "The beer line is full of beer it only becomes foamy when I begin to pour."
                              Are you saying that the beer in beer line is beer color and has no gaps of CO2, turns white with foam as you pour?
                              If this is correct then something in faucet might be causing the problem but for sure something is irritating the beer from keg to coupler. If you have no CO2 gaps in beer line then something on coupler is causing your foam, either check ball or retainer, if you still have check ball installed, take it out. If you have CO2 gaps in line, then most likely it's probe seal/ keg seal on coupler or keg seal on keg. If you are getting a new keg on Thursday, just forget about this keg, it will be foamy until it kicks (by what you have posted), use pitchers till it kicks. New keg, check keg seal for damage, acclimate, CHECK GEAR FOR DAMAGE OR ANYTHING MISSING AND CLEAN (this includes faucet, shank, coupler and fittings).
                              KB

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