Foam!!!!!!

[Mort40]

I recently bought a new Kegerator (Vissani and I know now its not the best) and for my first keg I have a 1/6 keg of Alpine Spring from Samuel Adams. I have been reading a lot of the previously posted threads and the sticky notes and from what I can tell I am doing everything right. I let the keg sit for 24 hours inside the kegerator which has a calibrated temp of 38 degrees. My PSI level is set at 13 and my second glass of beer has a temperature of 38.7. I emailed Samuel Adams asking for the carbonation level of that beer and they responed saying 13 PSI and to serve the beer at a temperature between 38-42, (Not what I asked, put an answer) which I already had set. However when I properly pour a beer I have half foam at best. The beer line looks good and has no foam in it. It seems to have a quick burst of foam and pour a bit quickly. Everything is stock including the beer line (Im not sure how long that line is). Any suggestions would be great.

Thanks

[KillianBoy]

Mort40,
Don't know what you mean by:

24 hours inside the kegerator which has a calibrated temp of 38 degrees

Thermometer should be calibrated, if it is calibrated, your numbers seem good, my calculations are 12.1 PSI with a v/v of 2.55, if you checked everything and hooked up right, the burst of foam (if you mean like a burp) the CO2 may be breaking out and you may have to bump the PSI up, 1 PSI at a time. You could do a flashlight test and see if bubbles are rising from coupler. Vissanis regulator aren't known to be accurate or well made, if still have problems after the test you may have to go to a longer beer line and new regulator. Your beer should have a flash of white when first pouring then beer color, as long as you don't have the burp, half foam isn't too bad, just have to adjust the PSI to balance for push.
KB

[Mort40]

I meant let it acclimate at the correct temp for 24 hours. Yes, thats exactly what I have a flash of white then beer color. What do you mean when you say adjust the PSI to balance for push. I will do the flashlight test and post the results.

[KillianBoy]

Mort40,
So, how are you "acclimate(ing) at the correct temp for 24 hours", most units of this type will have WIDE variations of temperature between on/off compressor cycles, without a fan you might get 28-50 degrees air temperature, if your taking the temperature of a glass of some sort of liquid and is at 38 degrees then the glass of liquid has outlived it usefulness and can be removed. Opening door too often will let cold air run away and cause interior to not get cold enough, I've frozen large bottles solid and poured 38 degree beer, a container of liquid is NOT equal to a keg of beer.
Most beer is carbonated to a certain level (v/v) once the PSI is found through the actual temperature of the beer, 1-2 PSI is added because when keg is filled the brewery will add a shot of CO2 into the headspace of the keg to help keep it carbonated over a period of time, this is called Push.
KB

[scriptohio]

The other question is have you added tower beer line cooling (fan in box with cooling hose all the way to the shank? You will also need to add a second fan at the top of the unit to circulate air in the cabinet.

If you don’t have tower cooling the beer in the tower will be warmer than the beer at the bottom of the keg so you will have extra first pour foam.

The Vissani is an ok unit I’ve had mine 2 1/2 years and after fixing some weakness in the unit it has been great. A number of brands kegerators come without a fan or air circulation in the cabinet so it has to be added after market. If you check out the commercial units they all come with circulation and tower cooling. Some of the Vissani’s came with USA components others like mine with cheap Asian knock off stuff. I guess it’s just who got the bid from the manufacture to supply shanks, faucets and couplers and regulators.

[Mort40]

What I did is place a digital thermometer as close as I can to the middle of the unit and it reads 38 degrees for the air temp everytime I check it. Then I took the temperature of my second glass of poured beer which read 38.7 (Immediately drank the first one like suggest on this forum). I never had a glass of liquid inside the unit to take the temp. Thanks for explaining what push is. I did the flashlight test this morning and adjusted the PSI till there where no bubbles rising from the coupler and the PSI level was just about the same as what I had set prior to the flash light test. Do you think a longer beer hose is my next step and If so how long should it be. Again thanks for all your help

[KillianBoy]

Mort40,
It's kind of unusual to have the exact air temperature every time, the compressor will turn on and off, at beginning of the cycle with will slowly cool from the warmest temperature, usually between 20-40 minutes, normally only at the end of the on cycle will the temperature will hold a constant temperature for a short time, so either your checking the temperature at that time every time or the compressor isn't shutting off.
If you feel the beer is flowing too fast then you might look into longer beer line.
In the flashlight test you usually look, if bubbles then slowly turn PSI up, check if bubbles then again slowly turn PSI up, check if bubbles if no bubbles then you good, if you ended up where you started something is wrong, you don't go back and forth adjusting the PSI, just one way.
KB

[pvs6]

You know the only temp that matters already, 2nd pour. Your pressure is correct. I and scriptohio have the same unit as you. When he tells you, you need tower cooling and a fan in the beer box itself he is dead on if you want perfect first pours. You what to add beer line length also 8 to 10 foot. Less than $50. to do all that But with out it on this unit there will be foam.

[pvs6]

Just a quick P.S. I don't apply push. Push being an extra Psi to overcome the resistance of "pushing" the beer through the hose. The beer in the center of the hose has next to nothing impeding it's movement. The beer that slides against the wall of the beer line is slowed by friction contact on the wall. Some people compensate by adding extra force or a 1 psi push to make the beer exist the tap a little faster. To me this makes sense in a bar setting where lines can be quite long and time is money. In a bar if your busy you want your server to get the product to the customer right away, a back up at the well could cost you business waiting on their order. But at home I don't mind taking 10 seconds to fill my glass it gives me time to enjoy the wisdom of my investment. Push or no push, both work, just know your real beer temp. match that to the v/v and read the chart for psi setting nothing to it. And by quick I meant long winded.

[KillianBoy]

pvs6,
Scott posted this in response to a thread you started:

"Push" has been used for decades at retail as it compensates for the pressure drop associated with an open faucet. A keg that has a specific carbonation level at a specific temperature will exert a specific pressure in the sealed head space of the keg. That head space is no longer sealed when the faucet is open.

If your PSIG against the beer is equal to the head space pressure (equilibrium), the gas in the beer will tend to leave as you dispense causing a pour that may be slightly streaky (not clear). If your PSIG against the beer is slightly higher (push) than equilibrium pressure at the head space, the gas in the beer is less likely to break out. One pound for home dispense is ideal as often your volume is lower than retail (maybe). Two pounds for retail as their volume tends to be higher (not always).

Most individuals would have a hard time picking up any flavor issues with a carbonation change at the bottom of the keg and this higher carbonation would not cause dispensing issues. Three or higher "push" pressure would be a different story.

The tubing really does not have an impact on this as all it does is transport the product from the keg to the faucet while hopefully maintaining quality and controls the speed of the beer flow from the faucet. If the dynamic pressure against the beer as it passes through the system equals the PSIG propelling the beer, fluid control tells us that are flow speed will be very close to a gallon a minute.

Now, if you choose to not use any "push", be aware that you risk having a little more of a dispensing issue than not utilizing this practice. Additionally, beer that has lost carbonation is easier to detect a flavor change than over carbonated. Although, if you are satisfied with how your system is set up now (Cubby), I defer way, way, way back to my first instructor Lyle - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

So if the flashlight test brings the right PSI and stops CO2 breakout then push or no push it should be balanced. OP said in the first post that he read through the forum, so I assume he understands the need for a tower cooler to prevent 1st pour foam and that in a stock system foam in first few glasses is inevitable, and that when he says he has 1/2 glass foam he means 2nd to 4th+ pour, which neither tower or air circulation (though a fan might help on 2nd and 3rd pour) will solve, once you get the foam he describes on every consecutive glass then it's the balance of the beer or hardware problems. If the flow of beer is too fast then a longer line might be necessary.
KB

[Mort40]

Thanks everyone for help. I'm going to try the longer beer line and a fan inside the unit and go from there. If that dose'nt solve the problem then I will look into getting a new regulator. KillianBoy is correct in assuming I get foam in every pour from the first to the fifth. Hopefully this will work. This might be a stuip question but, I cant find out how to adapte my current tower to a cooling tower? Thanks

[djc]

You get a project box for your fan, and route a tube from the box up to the shanks at the top of the tower. If your foam is due to temeparture, the longer lines will not help. If your foam is from fast flow, then it will.

[KillianBoy]

Mort40,
There are a multitude of ways to make a tower cooler, but the basic idea is to take the coldest air from the bottom of the unit, via a tube or hose to the shank and air returns either in the empty space or via another tube or hose, I use a blower to blow air up and a muffin fan to suck it back out. But a fan is all you need for now, it will circulate air, it won't take care of 1st glass foam but every one after that should be fine. You should check on temperature of the beer and compare to PSI set, flashlight test will work if the temperature is stable at temperature tested at, once temperature of the changes, PSI needs to be changed, otherwise foam.
KB

[Tassenza]

Mort40 - what ever happened? Did the longer line help? I am having the same issue with my Vissani. Temp and psi seem to be spot on for me, I haven't changed my line for a longer one yet, was wondering if this actually worked for you?

Thanks...

[Mort40]

Tassenza - I installed a 10ft line and a cooling fan and it is working much better, still a little foam nut not bad. I think the longer line made the biggest difference. I would try that first.