Advanced Draft Setup - Help

[taylorjes]

Hi

I've built a couple draft systems in the past and I've run into new issues in my latest build.

I have a single keg system built into an outdoor bar setup. The keg/fridge/tank is position in the basement below (and inside) the outdoor bar. We've run aprox. 20' of line up and through the house to the tower on the outdoor bar. The choice beer for the keg is Bud Light and in my experience I can push BL almost frozen at high pressure (14+psi). Our problem is with the "first cup" (literally 1 fluid cup), it always pours foamy and with gaps/bursts.

Our line is completely wrapper from fridge to tower and we're despensing at an almost even temp keg-to-counter. I was assuming that I needed to fiddle with the pressure and temp, but nothing seems to change the bursting/foam effect.

After the "first cup" everything pours perfect, even at the higher pressure and lower temps.

Aside from installing a commercial blower is there anything I'm missing

- taylorjes

[taylorjes]

Edits:

current - 12pst @ 34F
test 1 - 14psi @ 38F
test 2 - 10psi @ 32F

all pour 1 w/ 80% foam and 2 w/ 10% foam (likey)

- didn't mean to imply that I drink gas with some beer on the side

taylorjes

[Sketch]

First and foremost - never set PSI based on a feel - PSI is always set in relation to Temp (2nd pour temp) based off a calculation. Bud light is a 2.7 v/v beer, which means at 38 degrees you need to apply 13 PSI. Running it at 12psi at 34 degrees could overcarbonate your beer and cause it to be foamy - at 34psi you should be applying 11 psi and at 32 degrees 10 psi.

But that is not here or there at the moment - the problem you have is your build design. Not saying you did a bad job - just saying that with it setup in the way you have it - you will always fight this issue. The spurts and foam are due to Co2 breakout - the beer in the line is not being kept at the same temp as the beer in the keg and the Co2 is no longer contained within the beer. At least this is what I am assuming - you don't mention an air cooled or glycol setup, so this is what im going with.

Your beer temp must be constant from keg to the tap or this will happen. At 20 feet you will probably have to do that with glycol, opposed to air, especially seeing as how it runs outside. This is why your first cup is the trouble and not the subsequent pours. Each time the line warms, could be 5 minutes - could be an hour, you will have a glass of foam come out first.

[taylorjes]

Thanks sketch,

my research kinda pointed in that direction, but I was hoping I just screwed up... so I'll looking into a glycol system...
Are there any other major consideration because of the multi-level layout?
Should I be adjusting the pressure to compensate for the ~8-10 ft "climb" to from the basement??

thanks for the info, I'll update this post with any adjustments we make

taylorjes

[Sketch]

I believe there are adjustments - but I don't know what they are. Hopefully someone else will chime in with that info.

[xscash]

Thanks sketch,

my research kinda pointed in that direction, but I was hoping I just screwed up... so I'll looking into a glycol system...

glycol systems require special and expensive parts, the towers are designed specialy for this application. you are better off with an "air cooled" system. run the beer line(without insulation) thru a 3" pvc pipe(insulated)from fridge to tower. run a 1" pvc thru the same pipe to the tower also, connect a blower to the 1" to deliver cold air from the fridge to the tower and the air will fall back to the fridge in the 3" pipe. use a temp controller at the tower to turn the blower on and off as needed to keep the line and tower cold. research "air cooled" here and you will find a ton of info on this method

[Scott Zuhse]

Glycol systems are actually cost effective next to the waste associated with air cooled systems. Particularly with this type of set up. Most air cooled systems have a difficult time managing temperature from the keg to the faucet. This must be accomplished, along with correct pressure, to be successful with dispensing draught beer. Actually, an air cooled system will be impossible in this situation as the single keg system is not designed to maintain temperature with the additional load placed on it with the piping. The kegerator will probably run all the time.

The reason you are experiencing the burst of foam is that you have a beer chilled system and unless you continue to dispense glass after glass until the keg is empty, you will always experience this foam. Simply due to the gas breakout from the beer as it sits in an environment that has no method of maintaining the beer's temperature. As the gas breaks out, it will rise and collect behind the faucet.

Another issue is the 14 PSIG @ near 32F @ 2.7 volumes in the Bud Lt. If you do not empty the keg with in a short duration of time ( a few hours), the top layer of the beer in the keg will become over carbonated. As this layer eventually arrives at the bottom of the keg you will experience additional foam.

Your best bet would be to research the forum for the many "McGuyver" glycol set ups or utilize a commercial glycol power pack for temperature maintenance. Maintain you're kegerator at 38F and set the power pack thermostat to maintain a bath between 29 to 32F. Keep the condensers clean and change your glycol every 18 months to prevent issues.

Although towers designed for glycol systems are quite reasonable, an air cooled tower is not that difficult to convert. A little bit of foil tape, vapor barrier wrap and expanding foam will allow decent heat transfer right to the back of the faucet. And do not skimp on trunk line. There is no substitute for a barrier tubing in contact with the glycol lines in a bundle that assures great heat transfer while minimizing condensation issues.

Reply to this post with a close est. of length of run, the vertical distance between the bottom of of the keg and faucet and we will be able to give you direction on balancing the system with the right combination of beer tubing.

[xscash]

i found it super simple to maintain temp with an air cooled setup when i draw air from the freezer section and return to the fridge. but if a poor mans glycol setup is in order, i am working on a "cheap" conversion for this. i am about to test my new set up and ill post the results and parts when tests are completed. my current glycol set up works great but i am trying to make it easier for anyone to convert.

[Scott Zuhse]

If your glycol set up utilizes existing refrigeration for the keg, a recommendation would be to monitor any increased frequency of refrigeration cycle and power use. Your device should not contribute to premature failure of refrigeration. Keep us posted.