Pros & Cons

[Mtn Wolf]

Right now I'm running Co2, With the tank in the Fridge. My Fridge stays at an average 34 - 35 degrees. I can get 11 kegs off of a 5 lbs tank. I'm going to switch to a nitrogen/Co2 blend. I have two questions... Is there any real benefit to haveing the Tank in the fridge versus out side at room temp? What is a good blend for nitrogen/Co2? I'm led to believe the blend should be 75% nitrogen & 25% Co2.

[Scott Zuhse]

The advantage of having the CO2 cylinder outside is that the high pressure gauge will read around 850 lbs. This will stay there until all of the liquid CO2 in the cylinder has depleted. Then the pointer will begin to drop and when it reads in the red area, there is not much gas left.

With the cylinder in the kegerator, the pointer is always in the red and it is difficult to determine when the cylinder will be empty. Keg yield does not vary much.

Why do you want to switch to a beer gas mix? Are you now dispensing a nitrogenated product?

[Mtn Wolf]

I have noticed that, on the gauge. Mine sits right above the red then when it gets to the half way piont (in the red) I know I'm on my last keg. Baised on the info you've provided I see that there is probably no real benifit to haveing the gas chilled or at room temp. Correct? I've decided to switch to the blend because I have talked to a few bar owners that run a blend over Co2. I'm told they get a smoother poor with the blend, are able to poor a larger variety of beers with a more consistant poor (not as much foam) and can get more kegs off of a single tank. I have an American tap and a slide, I plan to get others so that I can add a second keg to my system. This way I can have a choice of what pint I want and enable my self to be able to get a larger variety of beers. I haven't decided yet if when I set up the second keg, on the system, if I will have to swap out the taps or just add them to the system with shut off valves so gas doesn't escape. Where the later is more convinent, you are now talking about running 2 or 3 taps into one faucet. With out adding a shut off valve to each beer line I 'm not sure you could prevent a back flow to the other taps.

[Misterworst]

Keep it simple and use one line and faucet for each type of beer, peronally i wouldn't want a pint of lager poured out of a faucet that just dispensed another type of beer.

As far as switching to blended gas i don't feel you'll gain much by using a 60 Co2/40 N mix for pushing regular products that work well with just Co2. Get your system balanced and your temperature and pressure dialed in you'll do fine without using mixed gas.

If you want the flexibility of adding a nitro beer then pick up a cylinder of the 75 N/25 Co2 mix. In this case you couldn't run your beers through the same faucet anyways, you need a stout faucet with a diffuser plate to properly pour a nitro beer.

[cubby_swans]

I have noticed that, on the gauge. Mine sits right above the red then when it gets to the half way piont (in the red) I know I'm on my last keg. Baised on the info you've provided I see that there is probably no real benifit to haveing the gas chilled or at room temp. Correct? I've decided to switch to the blend because I have talked to a few bar owners that run a blend over Co2. I'm told they get a smoother poor with the blend, are able to poor a larger variety of beers with a more consistant poor (not as much foam) and can get more kegs off of a single tank. I have an American tap and a slide, I plan to get others so that I can add a second keg to my system. This way I can have a choice of what pint I want and enable my self to be able to get a larger variety of beers. I haven't decided yet if when I set up the second keg, on the system, if I will have to swap out the taps or just add them to the system with shut off valves so gas doesn't escape. Where the later is more convinent, you are now talking about running 2 or 3 taps into one faucet. With out adding a shut off valve to each beer line I 'm not sure you could prevent a back flow to the other taps.

You're going to end up with flat beer. Beer gas doesn't have enough co2 in it to maintain the beer's natural carbonation leve. It's %25 co2. You're only supplying the beer 1/4 of the co2 it needs to remain carbonated. That's like taking 100% co2 to a beer and running it at 4PSI.

[Mtn Wolf]

Misterworst, Thanks for your info. I didn't know aboout the differant faucets. The only reason I going to a blend is purely for flexability. My temp, Pressure, in fact the whole system is tuned perfectly. I just want to have the flexability to poor what ever keg I decided to enjoy.

cubby_swans you have a very good piont. I'm no expert, but I wood assume the nitrogen would have the same effect as Co2. Am I wrong? If so what would be a good mix?

[cubby_swans]

Misterworst, Thanks for your info. I didn't know aboout the differant faucets. The only reason I going to a blend is purely for flexability. My temp, Pressure, in fact the whole system is tuned perfectly. I just want to have the flexability to poor what ever keg I decided to enjoy.

cubby_swans you have a very good piont. I'm no expert, but I wood assume the nitrogen would have the same effect as Co2. Am I wrong? If so what would be a good mix?

A good mix would be 100% co2 in a home draft system. If I wanted multiple brews this is what I would do: Use 1 bottle of co2 with 1 primary regulator and two secondary regulators (for three beers). That way each beer can be served at whatever pressure it needs. Each regulator would have it's own co2 line going to it's own coupler. Then each coupler would feed the beer to it's own faucet, so for three beers, in this example, I would get a tower with three faucets.

I assure you that you have complete flexibility in serving any beer that comes in a keg using co2. I've served wheat beers and IPA's and there are dozens of different beers that the users on this forum dispense using co2. All you need to do is find out the correct pressure for the particular beer you are serving, which can be easily done by e-mailing the brewer and asking them what psi to serve the beer at, or checking in on this forum for advice. I have a short list compiled of various beers I've tapped or considering tapping.

The ONLY reason you would need a beer gas blend is if you wanted something nitrogenated like Guinness or Boddington's, then you would need a 70/30 or 75/25 or whatever it is of beer gas, and a stout faucet.

The nitrogen does not have the same effect as co2, and does not remain in the beer. The bar owners who may be using this method are probably not experiencing flat beer because they are going through kegs too fast for them to go flat.

[Mtn Wolf]

Thanks cubby, that last post was very informative.

[Scott Zuhse]

Flexibility is advantageous as long as the end result is dispensing a quality product. A gas blend does allow you to dispense beer at a higher pressure (20 - 25 PSIG) thus compensating for temperature issues and long remote runs.

Unfortunately, the 25% CO2 / 75% N which is designed specifically for nitrogenated beers will not maintain product integrity of ales and lagers. The beer will go flat with in two to three days. Many retailers do not realize that they are presenting flat beer since their customers generally do not complain. They simply switch to bottle beer or worse, go somewhere else to drink.

The correct blend would be 60% CO2 / 40% N. Since C02 liquefies under high pressure, this is not readily available in cylinders due to limitations of how much overall pressure that can be placed in the bottle. So little that keg yield would be disastrous. On a side note, CO2 gas in a cylinder yields three times as much as a bottle of blend.

The easiest but expensive method for home dispense would be to use a gas blender to acquire the correct ratio. Most certainly you could use 100% CO2 to dispense your products. Simply heed the advice of the other forum members. By the way, do not ask brewers what pressure to dispense their products. Always ask what carbonation level in volumes the beer has. This will tell you exactly what PSIG to dispense the particular beer at based on temperature and elevation.

[jlopez77]

Always ask what carbonation level in volumes the beer has. This will tell you exactly what PSIG to dispense the particular beer at based on temperature and elevation.

How would you figure this out once you got the carbonation level? Is there a forumula?

[Scott Zuhse]

Using the Zahm-Nagel carbonation chart, determine what the temperature of the beer is. Cross reference this with the beer's CO2 volume level and this will give you the pressure required to acquire what is called equilibrium. The gas in the beer stays put and the gas head pressure will not impart itself into the beer. Their site is down at this time so a link is not available.

Since when the faucet is opened there is a pressure drop, you will require up to two additional PSI referred to as "push pressure" above what the chart called out. This compensates for the pressure drop reducing gas breakout from the beer while dispensing. This can result in slight over carbonation but not enough that you, I or anyone else could detect as a flavor issue.

The key to success in utilizing 100% CO2 is to know exactly what temperature your beer is and maintain this 24/7 all of the way to the faucet. Not easy! This is why gas blends are much more effective than 100% CO2 for dispensing. It allows you to use much higher pressure compensating for temperature issues and long runs while maintaining carbonation level of the beer. Although, you must use the correct ratio of CO2 to nitrogen for ales and lagers. 60% CO2 / 40% N will take care of the range CO2 volumes found in this group.

[Mtn Wolf]

Thanks for the additional info Scott. I don't think I could talk the gas blender past the wife. Where I have joked about running some long lines to put a faucet else where in the house or outside, kegs in the basement, I'm just as happy going down and filling up a pitcher. It sounded like a good idea but I'm glad I looked into it a little more. I really don't think a blend will really work for what I have, especialy since I don't have any long lines to push, no temp or pressure problems. Why mess with something that isn't broke. I appreciate all of your input and asistance in clearifying this issue for me.