New Member --- Advice on remodel project

[Drafty McDuck]

Greetings and salutations from Portland, Oregon. New member as of yesterday and first official post. I got a little bit over my skies on my small basement bar and am trying to get educated / course correct before my cabinets get built. I am putting a small bar in my basement with a kegorator, beverage fridge, ~ 8 LF of back bar and a 5 ft bar. I had intended to put the beer tower next to the sink so I would have a clean and tidy way of draining foam, spills and/or waste. My problem which I did not account for, based on the configuration of my basement and space allotments, they kegorator is about 8 feet away with 90 Degree left turn away from the sink. So questions:

1) I have purchased as Summit 490BC unit without the beer dispensing kit; thought it made more sense to by the piece-parts for the dispensing system Vs. getting stuck with stock POS components.

Summit Question 1: I have been told Summit is absolute crap and I should start over --- seems quite a few of you have some good workarounds to get a Summit serviceable if not dialed-in. What is the consensus on the unit and did I just waste my money?

Summit Question 2: How well do two pony kegs fit in the Summit? I will not be placing my CO2 tank inside the unit.

2) What are my options to keep the current plan --- 8 ft of line in the base cabinetry from the kegorator to the siink? Is Glycol really my only option? I am worried I am setting myself up for just another expensive piece of equipment that will go bad. What else is required with a Glycol system aside from a power pack and $10/foot tubing.

3) Path of least resistance seems to be a countertop tower directly above the kegorator. Original design had AV shelving directly above the built-in kegorator. Will of course require a cabinet mod and additional bar sink.

Question 1: Do most folks put tap handles on their towers?
Question 2: How much room do I need above the tower to have a comfortable set-up. I will essentially place it in an open cabinet with my AV equipment on shelves above it.

I think you all in advance for your interest, input and time.

Thank you,

Chad

[KillianBoy]

Chad,
Welcome, Summits are decent units, not sure it it can handle a 8+ foot run with 1 or 2 bends, but as a built-it, it should work.
You have to define "pony" keg, the true pony is a stubby 1/4 keg, but some have been used this term for the slim 1/4 and even the 1/6, by what site says it won't fit 2 slim 1/4.

This might be true if referring to 1 model of 490, the Summit 490 has several models, it should be SBC 490-*******, so to confirm what will fit, confirm model.

I really think glycol is overkill, if you have the money, space and time knock yourself out but look at the MM resource regarding air-cooled systems.

Air Cooling A Draft Beer System

Look at my newbie thread:

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-en/trouble-shooting-beer-quality-home/9458-newbie-owners-1st-steps.html

I suggested this before to some trying to run a remote:

"The worst thing you can do is let the drip tray (or sink) tell you where to put faucet, you HAVE TO keep the run from unit to faucet as short as you can, drip tray is just that, it just catches the drip, you don't pour foam or beer in drip tray, that is just wasteful. If you want a drain like a professional set-up (BM-23 and like), just run a waste line (old beer or gas line) from drip tray to your household waste line (preferably before trap), beer from drain doesn't need to be cooled, beer line does".

If you plan on pouring copious amounts of beer down the drain then fine but pouring foam and beer down drip tray is just a waste of beer.

Most members use some sort of tap handle, if limited height, use generic stubbies or custom brand from MM. If you plan on brewery markers (like the ones you see at bars), it all depends on what you want to use. I bought a marker once that was huge (both height and width), now it sits as a display, so again height, as above says, depends on what you want to do and what you find attractive or ugly regarding tap handles.
KB

[Drafty McDuck]

Killian Boy,

Thank you very much for the reply!!!

Quick answers to your questions / clarifications....

Pony Keg -- I am old school, referring to the 1/4 barrel, not the skinny guys

Summit Model -- SBC490BINK

I am slowly (but feels like surely) coming to the realization that I need to jettison the longer run and go with a countertop setup --- time to go measure remaining height of AV cabinet and may get rid of a PS3 (ha, ha).

[KillianBoy]

Chad,
No problem, it looks like the SBC490BINK is the SBC490-BI (with tower and tapping kit), which is a rebranded Haier, I will tell you should fit 2 "SLIM" 1/4. MM site says only 1, BF site says it will fit 2 "SLIM" 1/4. Getting 2 "PONY" kegs into this unit is tricky, older manuals says that you can get a "connector" (basically a band of metal w/ screw clamp), a 2 low profile couplers and you could do it. Problem is you can't find these connectors anymore and looks like they don't recommend stacking pony kegs (I guess it fell on people who tried).
Depending on where and how deep you want to mount tower, post pictures, maybe a member has any idea, if a few inches, you could get a tap handle angler, if you have enough gap between counter and unit, mabe you could build a short remote dispense or maybe use unit as a regular remote dispense from behind wall,etc. There are tons of ways to do this without tearing out anything. If you are out of ideas, post diagram, pictures, footprint, etc. Maybe other members have a better idea.
KB

[Drafty McDuck]

So I am rethinking my strategy --- and taking KB's input to heart. A few questions on BevAir models:

1) Does the BM23 line fit Coors Light kegs? That is my session beer of choice so would need ability to fit both 1/2 and 1/4 barrels.

2) On the standard (not club) BM23, what is the distance from back of unit to center of tower hole?

3) On the club model, is any keg capacity given up for the cooler space?

4) Is there any difference between the one and two keg BM23 aside from the tapping kit? I may upgrade to dual faucets in future and am wondering if there is any benefit in ordering two keg unit up front as I plan to customize tapping kit in beginning anyway.

Thanks in advance for your expertise and assistance!

Chad

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Drafty McDuck;68588]So I am rethinking my strategy --- and taking KB's input to heart. A few questions on BevAir models:

1) Does the BM23 line fit Coors Light kegs? That is my session beer of choice so would need ability to fit both 1/2 and 1/4 barrels. Yes it will fit a coors light 1/2 barrel

2) On the standard (not club) BM23, what is the distance from back of unit to center of tower hole? to rear of tower 17.5" , Tower on center 19"

3) On the club model, is any keg capacity given up for the cooler space?No, And don't buy one.Those units are stupid.unless you can get one at a steal.

4) Is there any difference between the one and two keg BM23 aside from the tapping kit? I may upgrade to dual faucets in future and am wondering if there is any benefit in ordering two keg unit up front as I plan to customize tapping kit in beginning anyway. Depends on the components offered. Bev air doesn't offer it as a factory option. So any mention of this upgrade is aftermarket.Bevair would charge to much for the components anyway.
Check my youtube video link in my signature for a bm23 two faucet upgrade overview look.

Thanks in advance for your expertise and assistance!

Chad

[Drafty McDuck]

PointPleasant...

in regards to your comment about the club model --- stupid because it messes with the performance of the unit or stupid in terms of an unnecessary feature that adds cost with minimal value?

The reason I am asking about the club model is the tower placement will really help me out.

Saw your YouTube vid, pretty fricken bad-a**!

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Yeah tower placement is nice for your situation.. But the drip tray is like 3" sq. useless for even a single faucet, two faucets forget about it will be dripping all over unit.To use the slide top door means you have to use the shelf to hold the cans & bottles.Then that in turn gives you zero wiggle room with the kegs inside( even tight as hell at the top by coupler) .

[Drafty McDuck]

Drats foiled again. But, that is the benefit of this forum --- get info from folks in the "know" so you don't drop $1700 on something that won't work.

So here are what I consider to be my final three options with highest likelihood of working for the long run. Photos of basement and layout are as follows:
Basement Soffit - Side.jpgView of Bar Space.jpg

Initial Plan --- Remote line from keg, blue box to sink; the light gray box next to cabinets is the soffit that houses my wastestack and the blue box next to that is where the kegorator was meant to be built in with AV shelving above
Original Plan - Remote Dispensing.jpg
This is a no go as there is not sufficient room for a refrigeration system and I am following the advice of the experts


Option 1: Use SUMMIT 490BINK, upgrade with tower cooler, internal fan and drill hole in top for drain
Option 2 - Countertop Tap in AV Cabinet.jpg

What I Like: Cheapest Option
What I Don't Like: Modifications are mildly annoying but really don't want to have the countertop of this unit visible and most likely takes up too much space in what was to be the AV cabinet which I have no other place to relocate

Option 2: Use SUMMIT 490BINK and run remote line to back side of soffit or countertop, install sink/drain in countertop
Option 3 - Short Remote Line to Countertop or Wall.jpg

What I like: Minimal investment assuming line is not refrigerated with expensive system and no impact to AV cabinet

I am unclear if I could use the Summit with mods to cool what would be a three or four foot line or how I could go about cooling that run.

Option 3: Purchase BM23 and modify AV shelving so that it is more shallow depth where it would get close to the beer tower; reason I would purchase a BM23 are as follows:

- I would no longer build in the kegorator and the door / countertop would be visible; much sexier than the SUMMIT if you will
- Tap is closer to the front so I would be able to put some shelving behind tower
- Unit has built in drain system
- Minimize modifications to provide proper cooling

What would you folks do --- end of the day I am going to spend the money it takes to get this right as I am almost done with my basement and am not going to botch the final piece of the puzzle.

Thanks again!!!

[KillianBoy]

Drafty McDuck,
OK, I kinda get what you are trying to do, couple of questions:
So door will be opening toward the side and not open space, if so why don't you want it to open the other way?
What are you planning to do with corner area (cabinet, shelves counter)?
What is the soffit made of, what are you planning on using the blank space on the soffit facing the open space?
Couple of comments:
This is the way to do remote dispense right:

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-en/kegerators-kegerator-kits-home/8186-my-new-draft-system-how-do.html

If the door is facing away from soffit then you plan on making the hole for remote dispense in back, I honestly don't think you can run a 4 or 3 inch PVC from either unit from back properly. So from side near wall you are looking at 3-4 right turns which is quite a lot (added 15-20 feet).
Some members have taken to putting faucets in side and/or door of unit, if you don't mind faucets being so low, maybe you could think about that. Maybe also you could put faucets in soffit, along with drain.
As mentioned before, keep distance from unit to faucets as short as possible with a few turns as possible. Honestly, you don't need the tower, I hate towers, looks good but a PITA to maintain properly (cooled). I would try to do this without the tower, if it were me.
KB

[Drafty McDuck]

Agree it is a bit difficult to tell what exactly is going on with those pictures as the cabinet designer did not build out the entire space as he only cares about his scope I tried to piece a few things together to give you a better visual.

Basement Mock-Up.jpg

Here is an improved set of plans that show potential locations and should align with options above
Improved Bar Plans.jpg

Hope this helps paint a better picture

[KillianBoy]

Drafty McDuck,
Yeah, your post confirms what I thought, ANY remote from back or right, will be difficult. I still don't know what you want to do with the open space side of the cabinet. No matter what, that is the side I would put the faucet and drip tray. I would run a remote dispense from top of unit, 90 degree angle, straight to side facing open space, drip tray underneath.
If you can't, my next place would be through door, with drip tray underneath, running excess into unit like the BM-23.
The more difficult way is to cut the shelves to fit the single tap handle, problem is, that if you add a tap, you have to re-do shelves to fit additional taps.
Left side of unit is best, either right through unit or remote dispense.
KB

[Drafty McDuck]

KB,

So I believe this is what you are recommending:
KB Advice.jpg

Btw, to answer your other questions:

So door will be opening toward the side and not open space, if so why don't you want it to open the other way? There will be a bar in that space, metal tube steel frame so it will be blocked (that is the white 1'6" rectangle in the picture)
What are you planning to do with corner area (cabinet, shelves counter)? I believe you mean the corner of the bar, cabinets and countertop
What is the soffit made of, what are you planning on using the blank space on the soffit facing the open space? This is what the soffit looks like, it is framed with 2x4 and is 1/2" drywall but open right now so I can do whatever is needed to support remote dispensing. Open soffit face is option, see below
Basement Soffit - Back.jpgBasement Soffit.jpg

Totally stupid question, but if I run the line through the door, doesn't that give me a faucet 2' to 3' off of ground?

If I ran a 45 out of top and went directly back through the soffit, I'd have maybe a 40" run to soffit wall.

Other option is what I believe you already asked a question about, 45 out of top and then a 90' to get to open face of soffit face you see in most of pictures. Would look like the following:
KB Advice 2.jpg

I could potentially do that with a 45 in the soffit and I am going to have that wall cut anyway for a custom shelving unit so I could easily modify that design and perhaps even build in a small drain

[KillianBoy]

Drafty McDuck,
Yeah, looks like if you went the way I suggested on side, faucets would be right above bar top. And yes, the faucets through door would be low (as mentioned before), if you don't mind bending down, this is the simplest and easiest way to go, couple of holes, PVC over shanks and a mount drip tray and you are done, you just have to be careful when you put a new keg in (I'd switch the side the door opens).
If you want to run a remote dispense, I'd go through new wall where cabinet is and not soffit, I attached way to run remote. "1" is the way I would go, 90 or 45 to wall, "2" goes through soffit, if you are comfortable running through 2 walls, then fine.
The best way is to run though cabinet wall is "3", drill new hole for PVC, run straight up (as far as you want), 90 degree turn, then mount the faucets, then fill original hole.
I got strange question, if the bar top runs from cabinet wall out, can't you put the kegerator under the bar?
KB

[Drafty McDuck]

Me thinks we are getting there....

Summit 490BINK
- 2" Flange glued to interior and placed up through pre-existing hole (may need to enlarge slightly)
- 2" 60 Degree Elbow screwed connection to flange
- ~40" 2" PVC diagonal run to wall
- 2" Long Sweep 90 Degree
- Cap or Flange against wall for shank
- Dual Faucet shank through Wall
- 15 CFM Blower in Summit 490
- Foam Installation Jacket over PVC with Tape

I would place the taps about 55" high

Any reason this won't work like a champ? Or am I better off just forking over the dough for a Bev-Air and modifying AV cabinet?