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  • Danby kegerator upgrades - temp seems fine with no mods, but still too much foam

    I've had a Danby Chill 'n Tap (model DKC645BLS) for about a year now. Like many others, I had a big foam problem from the start. I've been compensating by lowering the CO2 pressure so that the gauge reads near-zero (I suspect the gauge is off), which has led to flat beer.

    I finally decided to fix these problems, thanks to several really helpful posts on this forum. So I bought the 12 CFM Dayton blower and the Brewer's Edge Temperature Controller II.

    After I installed the blower, I was curious if I should run it continuously or just have it come on with the compressor. I also wanted to know if I even needed the temp controller, since my thermometers indicated it was getting below 32°F without any modifications. So I borrowed some data logging equipment from work and monitored the temps in the top of the tower, in about a quart of water sitting on top of the keg, in the air around the top of the keg, and outside the kegerator (in my garage).

    I found that with the blower on part-time duty, the temps in the tower were getting as high as about 60°F. I then took about 10 hours' worth of data with the blower running continously. Here are the plots of temp vs. time:



    And here are some stats (min/max/mean):

    Tower: 33.1/44.2/39.3
    Water: 35.9/36.8/36.4
    Air: 33.7/40.5/37.4

    I was very surprised that the kegerator is keeping the water at right around 36°, given all the stories I've heard about it not getting cold enough. I have it set at 36°, BTW. So my first question is, do I really need the temp controller? I mean, I could set it lower to get those tower temps down but then my beer would get too cold, right? I guess another benefit would be that I could set a smaller differential so the tower wouldn't warm up so much. Or is a max tower temp of 44° okay?

    Also, I tapped a new keg and set the CO2 to an indicated 13 psi, and I got a glass of almost 100% foam. Days later, I am still getting about 75% foam. Given the speed it's coming out at, I really think the pressure has to be much higher than 13 psi. So I ordered the "premium" regulator from Micromatic in hopes that the gauge would be more accurate. I also ordered new beer and gas lines in case that has anything to do with it. I do clean my lines regularly but I am running out of ideas. Is there anything else that might be causing all this foam?
    Last edited by jtmccabe; 04-29-2009, 08:48 PM.

  • #2
    If the temperature is where you want it, the Brewer's edge isn't needed. Hold on to it though in the event you decide to get rid of the defrost cycle or the Danby control craps out on you.

    Cool the tower. That will help a great deal I suspect. And the MM regulator is going to be far better than the Danby supplied unit too I bet.
    Malt is the soul of beer... and yeast gives it life..
    but the kiss of the hop is the vitality of that life!

    My three favorite beers: The one I just had, the one I'm drinking now and the next one I'll have.

    http://kegerator-social-network.micr...bygrouptherapy

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jtmccabe View Post
      I've had a Danby Chill 'n Tap (model DKC645BLS) for about a year now. Like many others, I had a big foam problem from the start. I've been compensating by lowering the CO2 pressure so that the gauge reads near-zero (I suspect the gauge is off), which has led to flat beer.

      I finally decided to fix these problems, thanks to several really helpful posts on this forum. So I bought the 12 CFM Dayton blower and the Brewer's Edge Temperature Controller II.

      After I installed the blower, I was curious if I should run it continuously or just have it come on with the compressor. I also wanted to know if I even needed the temp controller, since my thermometers indicated it was getting below 32°F without any modifications. So I borrowed some data logging equipment from work and monitored the temps in the top of the tower, in about a quart of water sitting on top of the keg, in the air around the top of the keg, and outside the kegerator (in my garage).

      I found that with the blower on part-time duty, the temps in the tower were getting as high as about 60°F. I then took about 10 hours' worth of data with the blower running continously. Here are the plots of temp vs. time:



      And here are some stats (min/max/mean):

      Tower: 33.1/44.2/39.3
      Water: 35.9/36.8/36.4
      Air: 33.7/40.5/37.4

      I was very surprised that the kegerator is keeping the water at right around 36°, given all the stories I've heard about it not getting cold enough. I have it set at 36°, BTW. So my first question is, do I really need the temp controller? I mean, I could set it lower to get those tower temps down but then my beer would get too cold, right? I guess another benefit would be that I could set a smaller differential so the tower wouldn't warm up so much. Or is a max tower temp of 44° okay?

      Also, I tapped a new keg and set the CO2 to an indicated 13 psi, and I got a glass of almost 100% foam. Days later, I am still getting about 75% foam. Given the speed it's coming out at, I really think the pressure has to be much higher than 13 psi. So I ordered the "premium" regulator from Micromatic in hopes that the gauge would be more accurate. I also ordered new beer and gas lines in case that has anything to do with it. I do clean my lines regularly but I am running out of ideas. Is there anything else that might be causing all this foam?
      I hope you ordered more than the standard 5ft. 5ft is typically not long enough to slow the flow down enough. and the co2 line very rarely needs to be replaced, it will have no affect on foaming problems. You need to check the temp of the beer not a cup of water. Second pour should be around 38d give or take. And if the kegerator is keeping the beer cold enough than you would have no need for a temp controller (I've only ever seen these used on freezer conversions anyway). neat chart BTW a little over the top but cool

      Comment


      • #4
        Yep, the blower is in and running continuously, but the tower is still getting as warm as 44 degrees. I even insulated the tower, so I don't think there's much more I can do without going crazy.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mp_cs View Post
          I hope you ordered more than the standard 5ft. 5ft is typically not long enough to slow the flow down enough. and the co2 line very rarely needs to be replaced, it will have no affect on foaming problems. You need to check the temp of the beer not a cup of water. Second pour should be around 38d give or take. And if the kegerator is keeping the beer cold enough than you would have no need for a temp controller (I've only ever seen these used on freezer conversions anyway). neat chart BTW a little over the top but cool
          I did get the 5' length but it is 3/16" ID. It says this: "This size hose is not appropriate for use in lengths longer then 5' as a higher then normal keg pressure would be required to dispense the beer and this would result in over carbonated (foamy) beer."

          Over the top? Who, me? I never get that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Where do you live?

            What kind of beer?

            You installed a blower how? Did you run a hose off of it to the top of the tower, and leave enough space in the tower for the air to return in the keg?

            Are you having problems with your water foaming up? If not, I would suggest taking the temperature of the substance that is causing you a problem, and not the glass of water. If you do find it's not quite cold enough, your problem can be fixed with a $1 resistor vs a $50+ temperature controller.
            ____________________________________________
            Our beer, which commeth in barrels, hallowed be thy drink
            Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern
            ____________________________________________


            Home Brew IPA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cubby_swans View Post
              Where do you live?

              What kind of beer?

              You installed a blower how? Did you run a hose off of it to the top of the tower, and leave enough space in the tower for the air to return in the keg?

              Are you having problems with your water foaming up? If not, I would suggest taking the temperature of the substance that is causing you a problem, and not the glass of water. If you do find it's not quite cold enough, your problem can be fixed with a $1 resistor vs a $50+ temperature controller.
              I live in Parker, CO (near Denver). Right now I have Miller Lite in there.

              I ran 3/4" copper pipe to the top of the tower. The copper pipe and beer line are inside a 2" PVC pipe that serves as the return. I have insulation between the PVC pipe and the inside of the tower. I'll post pics later.

              I should be able to install the new regulator and beer line tonight, and then I'll see where I am and shoot for a beer temp of 38°. I just used the water to get an idea of the beer temp inside the keg.

              The resistor method wouldn't allow me to adjust the differential, which I may need to do to keep the tower from warming up too much when the compressor is off. It's hitting 44° instead of 60° now, but I don't know if that's cold enough.

              Comment


              • #8
                Denver - there's part of your problem

                You need to add 1psi of pressure per 2000 ft of elevation ASL. Miller Lite normally about 13-14psi at 38F at Sea Level. So you need to be running more like 16 or 17. At that pressure, 5' of line is way too short. It needs to be more like 10' to slow the flow.

                Your tower blower should be running all the time. Not with the compressor. The volume of beer in the line is low, and will warm up fast once the tower blower is off. Keep the tower on all the time and your tower temp should match the interior air temp, and the beer temp in the beer line will be much more stable.

                You still didn't say what the BEER temperature is. I know the resistor won't change the differential. What I said was that you could use the resistor if you need to cool it further.
                ____________________________________________
                Our beer, which commeth in barrels, hallowed be thy drink
                Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern
                ____________________________________________


                Home Brew IPA

                Comment


                • #9
                  So I need to increase the pressure but use a longer beer line. Seems strange, but you guys are the experts. So even for 3/16" ID, 5' is too short? Crap, that's what I ordered and I was hoping to not have to wait any longer.

                  My blower IS running continuously now and the tower is still hitting 44°, or about 3° higher than the air down below. When the blower was only running with the compressor, the tower was hitting 60° between cycles.

                  I will measure the beer temp tonight once I install the new parts and see if things need to be cooler. I knew what you were saying about the resistor. I was just trying to justify the $111 I spent on the temp controller. Thanks for the advice.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by cubby_swans View Post
                    Denver - there's part of your problem

                    You need to add 1psi of pressure per 2000 ft of elevation ASL. Miller Lite normally about 13-14psi at 38F at Sea Level. So you need to be running more like 16 or 17. At that pressure, 5' of line is way too short. It needs to be more like 10' to slow the flow.

                    Your tower blower should be running all the time. Not with the compressor. The volume of beer in the line is low, and will warm up fast once the tower blower is off. Keep the tower on all the time and your tower temp should match the interior air temp, and the beer temp in the beer line will be much more stable.

                    You still didn't say what the BEER temperature is. I know the resistor won't change the differential. What I said was that you could use the resistor if you need to cool it further.
                    like i said before and cubby just reaffirmed, your going to need more than 5ft of the standard 3/16''beer line. I have 8ft with the same brew and it is just long enough to slow the pour down. as cubby said get at least 10ft, then trim off in 6'' sections until you get an good pour rate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks guys. I'll try the 5' hose that arrives today and hopefully it will help a little, since the hose I have now looks like 1/4". I should be able to pick up a longer hose locally this weekend and try what you suggest (~16 psi with 8-10').

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, I put the new regulator and hoses in and it still foams like crazy. I turned the pressure up to 16 psi and it foamed worse. I will try the 8-10' beer line this weekend.

                        So is the point of turning it up to 16 psi to maintain the proper carbonation here at ~6000' ? I'm guessing it's not helping my foam problem any.

                        Here are some pics of my setup:



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The dayton blower may be adding to the extra heat in the tower the tower. It may be a low current ac unit but I think it still makes about 9 watts. Your trying to shove 15cfm up 3/4 inch pipe. You'll be better off opening up the blower output and then placing the bottom of the pipe about 3/4 inch above this. Yes, most of air will not go up the pipe, but enough will and you'll unload the blower. The excees air will blow somewhat across the cooling plate and circulate the air inside the unit. And,
                          Get the longer line.
                          Measure the beer temp, not water temp.
                          The lighter beers are a bit more foamy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lunkhead View Post
                            The dayton blower may be adding to the extra heat in the tower the tower. It may be a low current ac unit but I think it still makes about 9 watts. Your trying to shove 15cfm up 3/4 inch pipe. You'll be better off opening up the blower output and then placing the bottom of the pipe about 3/4 inch above this. Yes, most of air will not go up the pipe, but enough will and you'll unload the blower. The excees air will blow somewhat across the cooling plate and circulate the air inside the unit. And,
                            Get the longer line.
                            Measure the beer temp, not water temp.
                            The lighter beers are a bit more foamy.
                            The Dayton blower actually uses around 36W -- kind of a nice little heater, I guess. The airflow is 12 CFM.

                            So you think the backpressure from the pipe is loading it and making it generate more heat? It is actually kind of noisy so maybe you're right. Could also be the motor vibrations conducting through the pipe, I guess. In any case, I might try decoupling it as you suggested and see how that affects the tower temp and noise level.

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                            • #15
                              Guys, I'd really like to better understand this altitude issue. Please weigh in here or in my other thread if you understand WHY the pressure should be higher at altitude.

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