BM-23 Stock Tower Cooler Questions

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Glad you tracked it down....

[whiplash willy]

I finally tracked down the source of the Off-Taste!!!!!

KB mentioned the pressure relief valve on the coupler awhile back. When disassembling and cleaning my coupler, that is the one thing I never removed because it wouldn't come off. After KB said something about it, I decided to remove it and check it out. It tuned out it had some black dots on the plunger. I tried cleaning/scrubbing the black stuff off, but I couldn't remove them. I ordered a new one from Micromatic, and finally got it on Thursday. I then removed the coupler, disassembled it, and cleaned it, then installed the new pressure relief. While I was at it, I cleaned the faucet, and shank with a beer line brush. I put it back together, and waited a day, then tested out the beer....It tasted fresh! The Off-Taste has been completely removed.

Here is a close up pic of the pressure relief valve...It is hard to believe those little black dots could have caused all of that off taste!

Dirty Pressure Relief Close.jpg

So it was either this pressure relief valve, or something in the shank, but when cleaning the shank, the brush came out clean, so my money is on this valve. I had only used this coupler once several years ago on a 1/6 of Mactarnahan's Amber. I never had a problem with that keg, but when I was done I removed the coupler and cleaned it (assembled) then stored it for a few years. That must have been when that stuff built up on the valve. I must have cleaned the coupler well enough before using it recently, because every other part was clean, except for the valve I never removed to clean.

Sadly I have gone through probley 2/3s of my keg with an Off-taste. I am glad it is working now and I was able to find the problem. I feel much better about getting another keg once this one is done.

Thanks everyone for helping me figure this one out! Especially KillianBoy and PointPleasantNJBeerguy!

Cheers!

hopdoa.jpg

[KillianBoy]

whiplash willy,
You are assuming that the black crud caused the off taste, it has never really caused taste problems with "big brewery" beers like Budweiser, maybe the recipe of the Hopworks and/or Laurelwood might have adverse taste problems when faucet isn't cleaned often, don't know.
I assume the black crud and 1 Laurelwood that had bad taste was at the end before you stored everything away? Did you refill CO2 just before the black crud or Laurelwood? Did cornys ever have beer backflow back to regulator? (beer or liquid dripping from gas hose and/or regulator)
If the cornys were the only ones that had the off taste, then most likely not coupler, but always good to have a new coupler.
I'd look at getting the tank cleaned and hydro-tested, look in yellow pages under compressed or liquid gas, look for the "AirGas" title, they might be more expensive but they will clean and fill with food grade CO2, by doing this it will make sure 100% you have clean gas and go from there.
KB

[whiplash willy]

I agree that it doesn't seem like I overcarbd the keg, it is just weird that a process for fixing overcarbd kegs,
improves my kegs taste. After letting it sit overnight with the CO2 off, and released pressure, and then turning on
the CO2 @ 10.5 PSI for a day, the Off-taste has been significantly reduced. It is mostly just noticed now as an after taste. I am glad it is reduced, but I want it gone, and I want to figure out the cause so I don't run into this in the future.

KB, I get your point about the Big Brewerys, I just can't get myself to buy a keg of anything from a big domestic
brewery. I don't think you are sounding like a jackass at all. I do appreciate your continued help and input for me
on this.

On my Past Kegs, starting about 4 years ago, I had about 4 kegs on my old Sanyo converted mini fridge. I could only fit Corny Kegs and 1/6 barrels, which is ultimately why I upgraded to the BM-23. I had 2 regular cornys of Hopworks beer, and 1 regular corny of Laurelwood. I also had 1 keg in a sankey 1/6th barrel from Portland Brewery. It has been so long ago that I really don't remember much other then I initially had off taste issues with the Laurlwood Corney, until I got it properly balanced. All of the others were fine all the way through. One of the hopworks one did have a off taste issue that due to crud buildup in the Shank, which is why I got a SS one this time around.

It has been a few years since my last keg in the Sanyo, and this first keg in the BM23. My faucet, Sankey Coupler, Co2 Tank, and Regulator were left over from my old kegerator. The Faucet and coupler were cleaned before I stored them, and the Regulator/Tank were just stored. Before I put the Faucet and Coupler back into use, they were completely disassembled and cleaned/brushed/sanitized. The coupler's pressure relief valve does have some black spots on the tip of the plunger, but I can't clean that off. I have a new one on order from Micromatic.

I am trying to find time and a place to check the C02 tank, but it was purchased new from a huge homebrew shop, and never gave me any problems on my last kegs, however it has been sitting a couple years since I used it last. I guess there is really no way to test the regulator, and I am not thrilled about throwing money at a new one just to see if that is my problem, but I guess I will have to if it comes to it.

If it is something on the CO2 end (like contaminated tank or regulator), I don't understand why it would have tasted perfect the first week, then all of a sudden go bad. If it was a sanitation issue, wouldn't have I initially had the off taste, and shouldn't the multiple cleanings have some impact?

On a positive side note, since I installed the tower cooler, all of my pours have been great, and my beer temp has bee very stable around 38*F.

[KillianBoy]

whiplash willy,
Most beers can take a bit more PSI than v/v, it is allowable to apply 2-3 PSI for push, say if you applied 18-20 PSI for an extended period of time, then maybe, but by your posts you didn't go above 15 PSI with temperature in low 40's (at warmest), which is within range of PSI which won't overcarb beer.
You seem to have this problem for 2 years, again you have to look at things as what was the same and what was different, if you did have same CO2 tank with nearly every keg causing off taste?, was there a keg that tasted fine all the way through? was it a standard sankey keg? was it a corny keg? was the off taste on a corny keg? was it yours or theirs? was all off taste from same brewery?
You have to take this problem on logically and not just say "it was over-carbonation, I'll just lower PSI". This is problem which as persisted for a long time and I don't think is a cleaning issue or over-carbonation, it might be a problem with areas you can't clean (pressure relief valve on coupler, regulator or CO2 tank).
I don't want to sound like a jackass, but is Hopworks Brewery as big as Budweiser, Miller, Coors?, when I say big I mean big, the biggest microbrewery is Sam Adams and I wouldn't even consider them a big brewery. I have never had problem with Budweiser, just saying throw a 1/6 of one of the above and see if you have off taste, if not then it isn't gear, most likely either you corny or their cleaning of kegs (depending on which kegs was off taste).
To me it sounds like the pressure relief valve (or anything touching gas), if you vent and shake, vent and shake, then adding CO2 after a few hours it has less off taste, then after more time off taste is more prevalent, then area exposed to CO2 on coupler might be causing the off taste, this means pressure relief valve, keg seal or gas check valve. Try and smell the gas hose leading from regulator, if any hint of beer smell, replace hose.
KB
Looked over your posts and are you saying all the cornys you got from the brewery were fine (I am assuming that these kegs were standard cornys and not converted Sankeys) and all the pony kegs had a funny off taste?

[whiplash willy]

Hopworks DOA is a "Strong Ale":

16* Plato
55 IBU
7.0 % alcohol

I picked it up at the brewery and it was filled NOV 17th, so it was pretty fresh.

I only think overcarbonation because releasing carbonation has helped with the off taste, but at most I didn't have the PSI at 13 for more then 48 hours. I did turn off the CO2, and release pressure from the keg and let it sit overnight. The next morning it tasted a little flat, but the off taste was gone from what I could tell. I haven't tried it since I turned back on to 10.5ish PSI and will see how it tastes tonight. By then it will have sat with the CO2 back on for about 1.5 days.

I guess if there is still a problem I will have to find a place to test my tank and maybe replace the coupler.

As far as trying a "Big Brewery", hopworks is a pretty large brewery, and I have had several kegs from them in the past (Corny fills) that were good until they were empty.

[KillianBoy]

whiplash willy,
If you didn't have PSI above 13 PSI, don't think it is over-carbed, I'd look at tank or coupler, again take tank to specialist and you might be better off getting a new coupler.
The pressure relief valve is basically a spring rated to move at 50+PSI and a rubber gasket. Rubber gasket will deteriorate and break down if not treated right. You could replace but really not worth the trouble.
djc could be right, keg could be near expiration and live yeast could be involved. Next keg try a big brewery and see how it holds up over time.
As the over-carb thread says, yes, CO2 is CO2, but people who fill are not the same, some don't take care of how tank is treated since all it will do is put out fire or some other non-food task. Just to be sure get tank checked.
KB

[djc]

If this is still the IPA keg, IPAs are very sensitive to time, usually staying fresh for less than 90 days. Depending on how old it was when you got it, it may just be at the end of its life. I've seen kegs being sold that are already at the end of that window, so I wouldn't rule that out. You will normally find some dating or a code on the keg collar or sticker.

[whiplash willy]

Thanks guys. I will keep an eye on the temps and make sure the blower isn't causing any issues. The blower has helped out drastically with the foam on the 1st pour, so that is no longer an issue. The off-taste is my only concern now.

Last night, my 1st 2 pints just had a small hint of the off taste, then the 3rd, the off-taste was really bad. I turned off the Co2 again, and vented the excess pressure, and waited 2 hours, then turned the pressure back on. I did a quick taste test, and the off taste was gone, however I worry it may come back.

Is it possible it could be overcarbination, since turning off the Co2, venting, and letting it sit for an hour or two, seems to help with the off taste? I am having problems determining if it is a Sour (bacteria) or Metallic (Overcarb) off taste.

I did pull out the pressure relief valve from the coupler, which I have never done before. I did notice on the brass tip of the relief valve, there were some black spots. I scrubbed with a brush and PBW and Sanitized it, however the black spots remained. I would have thought they would be removable if they were bacteria or some other organic crud... I also removed the plastic check ball from the couple as some have reported that causing an off taste.

Honestly with how anal I am about my cleaning, and most everything being new or only used a few times and thoroughly cleaned, I really wounder if my problem is a bacteria issue. Especially considering how many people on this forum only clean between kegs, if that, and don't have issues. Also the fact that fixes for Over-Carbonation seem to help with this off taste.

The only thing is that I don't have any foam issues now that would be associated with Over-Carbonation and Bacteria. I just have the metallic taste...

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

MM has a bracket for those 12cfm blowers. Kinda pricey at $45. But less tinkering involved.

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Also just keep your eyes on temps. These blowers can pull to much cold air from these small units.

[KillianBoy]

whiplash willy,
I don't think tower cooler is the problem of off taste, simple to check after 12+ hours pour first couple of ounces in tall shot glass or similar and check temperature (should be 45-50 degrees). All your extra blower might be causing more problems than it solves, I would just run stock cooler.
If you cleaned separated probe, then it might be the pressure release valve itself, when you vent does the CO2 escaping from valve have an off smell?
Shank can be cleaned when you have faucet off, just stick a Q-Tip in tube leading to coupler and see if what it show, if black this might be the cause of off taste, then you need to brush clean.
You really have to take things one at a time, take all new modifications off, check valve, check shank, if fine, then look at tank, find an AirGas specialist to clean and hydro-test tank, fill with food grade CO2 just to be safe, if still off taste, look at coupler, might be best to replace, maybe the chemicals you used might have caused the surface of probe to change, don't know but you should use standard Beer Line Cleaner.
If done all that and still off taste then it might be the regulator, but if you had gas check valve in coupler, beer should not have gotten to regulator.
Right now I think you should look at tank, have a shop clean and hydro-test, you will never see problems with tank (problems will be inside), a pro will tell you if there are problems.
Also I would stop soaking coupler, all you need is to run a brush through probe, soaking can shove beer and crud into place you can't reach, don't have to disassemble, just run brush through probe, every 4-6 kegs disassemble, clean and dry, 2-4 week cleaning just brush.
KB

[whiplash willy]

I'm curious how how mounted the blower.Can you attach a pic?

Currently it isn't really mounted. I have it sitting on a rubber mat on the back hump by the CO2 Bottle. Once my keg is out, I will find a bracket, and mount it to a block of wood, and then use commercial grade 3m Hook and Loop tape to stick the block to the back hump. Something similar to how this person did it:



A couple of things about the blower:

That metal fitting in the pic can be found at Home Depot or Lowes in the plumbing section. It will thread in perfectly the the blowers output flange. The barbed end also fits the oem BM23 blower hose (Clear spiral hose), so I was able to reuse my current blower hose, and hook to hook it up to the shank with the existing hook.

I could have got "Tower Cooler" made of a project box and PC Fan for $50, but I opted to pay $60 for a commercial grade blower that is designed to run 24/7..

I'll update the thread with a pic of how it currently sits, and when I permanently mount it, I will update with pics as well.

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

I'm curious how how mounted the blower.Can you attach a pic?

[whiplash willy]

I bought my CO2 tank new a few years ago from a Homebrewshop. It is a 5lb aluminum unit. I am not sure where I could get it cleaned or hydro tested though. Before I got the keg, I did check the tank, and everything looked good/clean. I have always run a check valve on the CO2 regulator, so no bear can get into the regulator/tank.

I did run PBW through the system, then StarSan on Wednesday. I then dissasembled the Coupler and Faucet, and soaked/brushed them out in PBW. I tried to get the opening of the shank as good as I could with it still attached to the tower. I then re-assembeled everything and flushed water through the system. The beer still had the same off taste to it. So then I tried CleanFLO through the system, letting it soak for 15 min, then flushing out with 1 gallon of water, and still no flavor change.

Out of desperation, I tried to use the fix to address overcarbonation:

You fix over carbing by turning off the co2, and pulling the relief. Let it sit for a while, then shake up the keg and pull the relief again. Adjust your pressure lower and turn the co2 back on.

I turned off the CO2, and pulled the relief, and let it sit for 1 hour, then shook the keg, and pulled the relief again. I then turned on the CO2, and set it at 10PSI. After about 12 hours, I tasted it again, and the "Off-Taste" had been significantly reduced, but it was still there a bit. So yesterday, I tried the above procedure again, and am now waiting to test it again.

I also ended up installing a Dayton 1tdN2 Blower. I can feel cold air come out of the blower hose now, however the shank and faucet don't seem that much cooler then before, although I am seeing very slight condensation on the faucet. I guess we will see how that helps tonight.

I did find a thread on this forum where the OP is having the same issue as me (Good taste for about a week, then off-taste). He never posted his solution, but it sounded like he ruled out everything but overcarbonation.

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-e...metallic+taste

I will update this thread with what I find tonight. I am really hopeing to salvage my remaining $80 Pony Keg of beer

[KillianBoy]

Not sure if the ambient temperature vs. properly working tower cooler question will ever be resolved, the kegerator I work on is nearly always in 80-90 degree ambient, sometimes I get decent 1st pours, when really hot and humid near impossible, maybe it's the high humidity in concert with high temperature, I don't know, but for sure forward sealing faucets would make it worst. Try and hand wash the glass (just take one dishwashered glass, then hand wash), dry and use at room temperature and see.

About bacteria issue:
If you separated probe from coupler body and cleaned gas chamber area, only other things that would be the problem: regulator and tank, not much regulator does that will cause bad taste but the tank is another story.
It has been reported by members that they get funny taste from bad tanks and poorly maintained ones.
What type of tank (steel or aluminum)?, where do you get it filled? Have you had it cleaned and hydro-tested?
Some have said they heard sloshing after the CO2 tank kicked, not sure what it was since OP didn't come back, but it is best to get tank cleaned at least one time.
Honestly don't think it is the normal black crud that forms over time, next cleaning you could use a green scrubber to clean the back side of the shank and faucet parts, make sure you use a brush through the shank.
KB