BM-23 Stock Tower Cooler Questions

[KillianBoy]

djc,
I guess I should have narrowed glycol statement, to the fact since the kegerator sits in a extreme warm environment that might be the only option. Forward sealing faucets have so much exposed surface of beer, no matter how good an air cooling system is, it would be hard to keep that much beer from getting warm in such an environment.
Most 525 owners keep their units in a controlled environment (bars, restaurants or air conditioned homes), few keep them in in environments of fairly high temperature like garages.
I don't think velocity of air flow would make any difference, cold is cold, it looks to be keeping shank at 48 degrees (on outside), but the tip near lever must be much warmer and causing the problem, if the ambient of garage is 85+, I don't think even a glycol system would help.
KB

[djc]

I have 525's in the garage and can pour a 1" head on the first beer all summer long. The difference with me is that all subsequent beers are without foam unless I force it with a direct down pour either to start or finish. I still think he isn't getting cool at the shanks. Velocity does matter because the ambient air is robbing the cold out of the faucets. Warming up is a rate of heat transfer. The more cold you bring, the less can get taken away.

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Could be your glassware too causing the foam issue.Are you using dishwasher to clean your glasses?

[whiplash willy]

I am using a dishwasher, but this has never caused an issue in the past, and the 2nd pour is always perfect. These last few days, I have just been poring the 1st 1/2, which is mostly foam, and setting it aside, then drinking my 2nd perfect pour.

I just purchased a Dayton Blower and will set that up this weekend to ensure my tower is properly cooled. Maybe the stock tower cooler just isn't up to the task of cooling my perlick properly.

So starting yesterday, a new issue has come around. These last several days the beer has been tasting as it should, however yesterday, it had a very strong "Off-Taste" It is a strong metallic/hoppy/sour taste. I am not sure if this off taste is due to contamination or possibly over carbonation, but it came on fast.

I tapped the keg on 11/26, and I thought it wouldn't need cleaning yet (Was planning on every 2 weeks). I am going to try and clean the system tonight if I can, or tomorrow at the latest, however I am a little worried that if it is a contamination issue, it will spread and ruin the keg. If it is a contamination issue, how likely is it to spread to the keg? Maybe a weekly cleaning is needed.

I have the Micromatic Pressurized cleaning bottle, so I will try that first, then if that doesn't help, I will remove the faucet and tap and Clean/Sanitize those.

Also, on a side note, I used my Perlick 525 with my last kegerator (Converted Sanyo) which had a PC fan to circulate air, and a Dayton blower to cool the tower, and never had any foam issues, even during the summer when it was 90*F in the Garage. The way KB describes the 525, I can understand why it is more likely to cause foam in a warm environment, over a standard faucet. Hopefully my Dayton 1TDN2 blower will keep it cool enough.

[DCullender]

Sorry WW, but I got lost in all of this discussion. Please restate your pressure and beer temperature.
As far as the metallic/hoppy/sour taste: Are you using chromed brass faucet and coupler or stainless steel? After the chrome has worn off, the exposed brass will impart a "metallic taste". "hoppy/sour taste", did your keg sit warm for any length of time? If it warmed to around 50 or more, it may have begun 2d fermentation and/or gone bad.

Just checked the "Draught Beer Quality Manual", published by the Brewers Association.
Sour/Vinegar taste caused by Aerobic Bacteria. Leading cause is dirty faucets.
Sour/Sour Milk taste caused by Anaerobic Bacteria (Lactobacillus) Leading cause dirty beer lines, faucets, couplers. This may require replacement of beer lines.

Dennis

[whiplash willy]

Thanks Dennis. Here is a breakdown of my equiptment from Coupler to Faucet:

Coupler:
-Stainless Micromatic
-Used
-Completely disassembled and soaked/brush scrubbed in PBW and Sanitized in Starsan. Replaced all rubber seals with new ones. Replaced check ball with new Micromatic pieces

Gas Line
-New Micromatic Gasline
-New Stainless Tailpiece
-New silicone fitting between coupler and tailpiece

Beer Line
-New Micromatic Beer Line
-New Stainless Tailpiece and washer
-Line, Tailpiece, and Washer was sanitized in StarSan before use

Shank
-New Micromatic ALL STAINLESS Shank (Had problems in past with chrome plated one, so this time around I made sure I used a new Stainless one)
-Soaked in StarSAN before use

Faucet
-Used Perlick 525
-Fully disassembled and soaked/scrubbed with PBW. Then Sanitized with Starsan
-Used all new gaskets (Sanitized before use)

Basically, everything that touches the beer is Micromatic brand. Any metal parts are all stainless. Everything is new, or if used was fully disassembled and rebuilt with new gaskets/seals.

With how everything started, I wouldn't think I would have bacteria issues 1.5 weeks in, but I guess with the amount of beer that sits between the shank and perlick faucet, which is warm due to my tower cooler issues, I guess that could explain a bacteria problem. (However people seem to not have problems going 2 weeks or between kegs in some cases)

I haven't checked the temp or PSI for awhile because the 2nd pour had been good, so I will check them again and report back. Last time I checked it was 38*F and about 11PSI (V/V is 2.4).

My biggest worry is that if it is bacteria, that it has spread to the Keg. I will run some clean-flo through it tonight with the pressurized cleaning bottle, and hopefully have time to remove and clean the couple and faucet (After the kids are put to bed)

It will be pretty discouraging to have a bad 1/4 barrel after the first week and a half of use....

[KillianBoy]

Not sure if the ambient temperature vs. properly working tower cooler question will ever be resolved, the kegerator I work on is nearly always in 80-90 degree ambient, sometimes I get decent 1st pours, when really hot and humid near impossible, maybe it's the high humidity in concert with high temperature, I don't know, but for sure forward sealing faucets would make it worst. Try and hand wash the glass (just take one dishwashered glass, then hand wash), dry and use at room temperature and see.

About bacteria issue:
If you separated probe from coupler body and cleaned gas chamber area, only other things that would be the problem: regulator and tank, not much regulator does that will cause bad taste but the tank is another story.
It has been reported by members that they get funny taste from bad tanks and poorly maintained ones.
What type of tank (steel or aluminum)?, where do you get it filled? Have you had it cleaned and hydro-tested?
Some have said they heard sloshing after the CO2 tank kicked, not sure what it was since OP didn't come back, but it is best to get tank cleaned at least one time.
Honestly don't think it is the normal black crud that forms over time, next cleaning you could use a green scrubber to clean the back side of the shank and faucet parts, make sure you use a brush through the shank.
KB

[whiplash willy]

I bought my CO2 tank new a few years ago from a Homebrewshop. It is a 5lb aluminum unit. I am not sure where I could get it cleaned or hydro tested though. Before I got the keg, I did check the tank, and everything looked good/clean. I have always run a check valve on the CO2 regulator, so no bear can get into the regulator/tank.

I did run PBW through the system, then StarSan on Wednesday. I then dissasembled the Coupler and Faucet, and soaked/brushed them out in PBW. I tried to get the opening of the shank as good as I could with it still attached to the tower. I then re-assembeled everything and flushed water through the system. The beer still had the same off taste to it. So then I tried CleanFLO through the system, letting it soak for 15 min, then flushing out with 1 gallon of water, and still no flavor change.

Out of desperation, I tried to use the fix to address overcarbonation:

You fix over carbing by turning off the co2, and pulling the relief. Let it sit for a while, then shake up the keg and pull the relief again. Adjust your pressure lower and turn the co2 back on.

I turned off the CO2, and pulled the relief, and let it sit for 1 hour, then shook the keg, and pulled the relief again. I then turned on the CO2, and set it at 10PSI. After about 12 hours, I tasted it again, and the "Off-Taste" had been significantly reduced, but it was still there a bit. So yesterday, I tried the above procedure again, and am now waiting to test it again.

I also ended up installing a Dayton 1tdN2 Blower. I can feel cold air come out of the blower hose now, however the shank and faucet don't seem that much cooler then before, although I am seeing very slight condensation on the faucet. I guess we will see how that helps tonight.

I did find a thread on this forum where the OP is having the same issue as me (Good taste for about a week, then off-taste). He never posted his solution, but it sounded like he ruled out everything but overcarbonation.

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-e...metallic+taste

I will update this thread with what I find tonight. I am really hopeing to salvage my remaining $80 Pony Keg of beer

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

I'm curious how how mounted the blower.Can you attach a pic?

[whiplash willy]

I'm curious how how mounted the blower.Can you attach a pic?

Currently it isn't really mounted. I have it sitting on a rubber mat on the back hump by the CO2 Bottle. Once my keg is out, I will find a bracket, and mount it to a block of wood, and then use commercial grade 3m Hook and Loop tape to stick the block to the back hump. Something similar to how this person did it:



A couple of things about the blower:

That metal fitting in the pic can be found at Home Depot or Lowes in the plumbing section. It will thread in perfectly the the blowers output flange. The barbed end also fits the oem BM23 blower hose (Clear spiral hose), so I was able to reuse my current blower hose, and hook to hook it up to the shank with the existing hook.

I could have got "Tower Cooler" made of a project box and PC Fan for $50, but I opted to pay $60 for a commercial grade blower that is designed to run 24/7..

I'll update the thread with a pic of how it currently sits, and when I permanently mount it, I will update with pics as well.

[KillianBoy]

whiplash willy,
I don't think tower cooler is the problem of off taste, simple to check after 12+ hours pour first couple of ounces in tall shot glass or similar and check temperature (should be 45-50 degrees). All your extra blower might be causing more problems than it solves, I would just run stock cooler.
If you cleaned separated probe, then it might be the pressure release valve itself, when you vent does the CO2 escaping from valve have an off smell?
Shank can be cleaned when you have faucet off, just stick a Q-Tip in tube leading to coupler and see if what it show, if black this might be the cause of off taste, then you need to brush clean.
You really have to take things one at a time, take all new modifications off, check valve, check shank, if fine, then look at tank, find an AirGas specialist to clean and hydro-test tank, fill with food grade CO2 just to be safe, if still off taste, look at coupler, might be best to replace, maybe the chemicals you used might have caused the surface of probe to change, don't know but you should use standard Beer Line Cleaner.
If done all that and still off taste then it might be the regulator, but if you had gas check valve in coupler, beer should not have gotten to regulator.
Right now I think you should look at tank, have a shop clean and hydro-test, you will never see problems with tank (problems will be inside), a pro will tell you if there are problems.
Also I would stop soaking coupler, all you need is to run a brush through probe, soaking can shove beer and crud into place you can't reach, don't have to disassemble, just run brush through probe, every 4-6 kegs disassemble, clean and dry, 2-4 week cleaning just brush.
KB

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

MM has a bracket for those 12cfm blowers. Kinda pricey at $45. But less tinkering involved.

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Also just keep your eyes on temps. These blowers can pull to much cold air from these small units.

[whiplash willy]

Thanks guys. I will keep an eye on the temps and make sure the blower isn't causing any issues. The blower has helped out drastically with the foam on the 1st pour, so that is no longer an issue. The off-taste is my only concern now.

Last night, my 1st 2 pints just had a small hint of the off taste, then the 3rd, the off-taste was really bad. I turned off the Co2 again, and vented the excess pressure, and waited 2 hours, then turned the pressure back on. I did a quick taste test, and the off taste was gone, however I worry it may come back.

Is it possible it could be overcarbination, since turning off the Co2, venting, and letting it sit for an hour or two, seems to help with the off taste? I am having problems determining if it is a Sour (bacteria) or Metallic (Overcarb) off taste.

I did pull out the pressure relief valve from the coupler, which I have never done before. I did notice on the brass tip of the relief valve, there were some black spots. I scrubbed with a brush and PBW and Sanitized it, however the black spots remained. I would have thought they would be removable if they were bacteria or some other organic crud... I also removed the plastic check ball from the couple as some have reported that causing an off taste.

Honestly with how anal I am about my cleaning, and most everything being new or only used a few times and thoroughly cleaned, I really wounder if my problem is a bacteria issue. Especially considering how many people on this forum only clean between kegs, if that, and don't have issues. Also the fact that fixes for Over-Carbonation seem to help with this off taste.

The only thing is that I don't have any foam issues now that would be associated with Over-Carbonation and Bacteria. I just have the metallic taste...

[djc]

If this is still the IPA keg, IPAs are very sensitive to time, usually staying fresh for less than 90 days. Depending on how old it was when you got it, it may just be at the end of its life. I've seen kegs being sold that are already at the end of that window, so I wouldn't rule that out. You will normally find some dating or a code on the keg collar or sticker.

[KillianBoy]

whiplash willy,
If you didn't have PSI above 13 PSI, don't think it is over-carbed, I'd look at tank or coupler, again take tank to specialist and you might be better off getting a new coupler.
The pressure relief valve is basically a spring rated to move at 50+PSI and a rubber gasket. Rubber gasket will deteriorate and break down if not treated right. You could replace but really not worth the trouble.
djc could be right, keg could be near expiration and live yeast could be involved. Next keg try a big brewery and see how it holds up over time.
As the over-carb thread says, yes, CO2 is CO2, but people who fill are not the same, some don't take care of how tank is treated since all it will do is put out fire or some other non-food task. Just to be sure get tank checked.
KB