Guinness, Beer Gas, and Two Taps

[OldState]

I looked for similar posts but most seem to end when the OP realizes Guinness wasn't available in 1/6 kegs.

Well now it is and I can get it. Here is my situation:

I want to run Guinness and a regular beer on the other tap.

I have a home bar with one kegerator and two taps. I have a dual pressure gauge to allow different pressures on either sixtel. My gas supplier will fill my tank with any mix I ask for.

I'm assuming I can use the same regulator.

What I am asking is has anyone used Guinness gas 75/25 or any beer gas mix to push regular beer and a nitro beer in a home bar situation with success?

I worked as a brewer in a brewpub 15 yrs ago and know for a fact we used the same beer gas mixture to push nitro and regular beers. I also know the gas supplier was supplying dozens of regular bar with it as well. It was a 60/40 mix but I can't remember for sure which was the 60% but I think it was NO2. We did not have an issue with beer going flat.

I have done quite a bit of research and have found a mix of science and speculation. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

Would wait for better responses, but from what I understand the 75/25 is for stouts only. Bars are using the blended gas only for pushto push beer long distances so the beer doesn't get over carbed on straight co2.And with that they usually use like a 70/30 blend from two seperate tanks through a gas blender.If you run the beer mix gas through your small system your non stout beer will taste like flat poo..

[OldState]

The going flat thing has be confused. Nitrogen will not dissolve with the temp and pressures we are using and if the keg has enough top pressure the existing CO2 should stay in solution, no?

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
As I mentioned before I don't think anything you did as a brewer relates to a short draw system. I tried to look for information regarding beer gas in forum this is what I found:

In a short draw draft system, straight co2 is all you need, and using a nitro blend would either cause your beer to go flat, or shoot out way too fast because of the elevated pressure needed to maintain proper carbonation.

well, basically, if you have a 75% nitro/25% co2 mix, you'd have to run the gas at 4 times the recommended co2 pressure to maintain the proper co2 level. The nitro does not dissolve in the beer like co2 does. You really should be using straight co2 for any beer that isn't nitrogenated (like guinness and boddingtons).

Cubby Swans (Super Moderator)

Question posted:
My question is can I use a 60/40 blend for guinness.

Response:
Unless you can drink it in one day, don't do it. Unless you want to drink Guinness flavored shaving cream. Guinness only has 1.2 volumes of CO2. A 60/40 mix is usually 60 CO2/40 Nitrogen. 75/25 should be 75 Nitro/25 CO2. Using a 60/40 mix would way overcarbonate the beer very quickly.You will either have to find a supplier that will fill a 5 lb tank, or drill a hole in the kegerater and put the larger tank outside.

70/30 mix is too much CO2 for 32-33 degrees. In Ireland , they use a 70/30 mix, the kegs are not stored as cold as we store them but the beer is run through a flash chiller for serving. Because we keep our beer storage temp. colder , they reccomend the 75/25 mix @38-42 degrees. The colder the beer, the more CO2 it will absorb. Your Guinness is overcarbonated.

Tapman (Super Moderator)

From what I have read Guinness needs 75/25% (nitro) anything less problems, you could run CO2 beer on the 60/40% (CO2) mix but it may lose carbonation, I don't think you can run Guinness and a CO2 beer using the same gas in a short draw system. If there is a member that said you can and it works, can you post the thread or cut and paste as I did (if you do cut and paste, best to do it in the edit mode).
To me the best bet is to use 2 tanks and a blender.
KB

[OldState]

I guess what is confusing is why would pressure have a different affect on the carbonation level of a liquid in a home system? Do you know of a person that has done this and had the beer go flat?

[KillianBoy]

OldState
Off hand I don't know any member by name that had a low PSI problem which lead to flat beer but this is what is in the resource section:
"Most breweries in the U.S. recommend a CO2 pressure between 12-14 lbs for Ale and Lager types of draft beers. This CO2 pressure will maintain the level of carbonation specified by the brewery.

If the draft beer is dispensed with too low of a pressure, the CO2 that is dissolved in the beer will “break out” of the beer. Initially this will cause the small bubbles of broken out CO2 to float up the beer hose which will result in foamy beer. And over time the low pressure will result in flat beer.

If the draft beer is dispensed with too high of a pressure, over time more CO2 will be absorbed into the beer. Initially, this will not cause any problems, but over time this will result in over-pressurized foamy beer. "

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking but if you are asking why you have apply X PSI, shouldn't Y (lower PSI) be fine. If so it is all about balance. Every beer has a v/v (carbonation), this is what every big and micro brewery (that kegs beer) does to every beer, if you apply a PSI that doesn't correlate to temperature of the beer according to the v/v of that particular beer you will have problems as mentioned above.
You need more PSI for warmer beers as Tapman says, most members have beers at high 30's, lower temperature, the PSI is lower, warmer higher, this is balance.
As you mentioned before, your brewery used bright tanks and CO2 assistance to get to faucets, keg is WAAY different from what you used as a brewer, read through resource section, search terms "balance", "newbie", if you have questions about balance ask away but most answers are in resource section and forum.
KB

[OldState]

I have read those links. However, my question is, if I have the same head pressure using beer gas as I do co2, how would the co2 come out of solution? Isn't pressure pressure? If so using guinness gas for my high pressure guinness keg and similar pressure for my regular beers should theoretically work. What am I missing?

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Normal PSI for Guinness gas is 30+, for "beer gas" 60/40 (CO2), normally you'd apply 20+ to compensate for the nitrogen. If you run a standard CO2 beer at 12 PSI using "beer gas", beer will slowly go flat because you are applying only 60 percent of the required CO2. By my understanding of the science, nitrogen is a null gas, it can't be dissolved into the beer, yet the CO2 can, you are applying the correct pressure but only 60% is of the correct gas, beer will slowly de-carbonate.

I'm not sure what you want to do, you have to run Guinness on Guinness gas and you have to run a CO2 beer on straight CO2 (short draw). Most applications for "beer gas" is for long run remote dispense, extremely rare to use in short draw systems. If you want to try and run both on "beer gas", all I ask just keep the membership updated, my opinion it won't work, you'll overcarb the Guinness and undercarb the CO2 beer, I can't see how it will work on 1 gas, your PSI will be more than 20 PSI which will shoot out faucet, set below 20 PSI Guinness will suffer, can't see any sweet spot to set PSI.
KB

[OldState]

If I was to use a 60/40 mix I agree the Guinness would be over carbonated at a higher pressure. I'm just confused as to how the regular beer would go flat with either beer gas or guinness gas.. I know you keep saying that bright tanks are different but I don't understand how they are any different than really big kegs. Our beer lines were at least 50 ft and our head pressure was no more than 15lbs with the beer gas...nothing close to 45lbs. Out nitro beers line were pressurized by an inline pump.

With the reasoning I am hearing we should have had a lot of flat beer and our nitro beers should have been foaming. Neither was the case.

BTW, from my understanding, Guinness developed the 75/25 mix to PUSH a low carbonated beer at a high pressure thorough a sparkler to mimic a hand pump. The gas mix was to mimic air...without the oxygen and wild crap that oxidized and spoiled the beer. From my understanding there is very little actual nitrogen in the liquid.


You have me convinced to buy a separate gas tank but I will definitely experiment and report back. My gut is telling me I can push everything with Guinness gas (dual regulators and different head pressures) with out losing Co2 in the non Guinness beer. My gas guy says they sell more beer gas mix than straight CO2 to bars AND home bar people. I bought straight CO2 because you can get more in a tank.

Dalton's Law has been suggested on other sites to support your point. However, I read it as similar volumes of different gas in IDENTICAL containers would have different pressures.....but total pressure is total pressure.

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Don't know what to say, I'm not a scientist, all I do is drink beer and not trying to understand any kind of law regarding gases.
But if you go by what you say, then just use 100% nitrogen, don't even worry about the CO2. From what I have read, this will flatten beer totally.
Also I don't think there is any nitrogen in the beer (liquid??) or even in the beer gas mix, nitrogen is always a gas, a tank of beer gas or Guinness gas has liquid CO2 on bottom with the nitrogen added to space above CO2. And don't go by what gas retailers do, I've read horror stories in the forum, if they have a choice of selling straight CO2 for $20 or mixed gas for $40, whether they need it or not, I'd say they want the money instead of doing what is right for the customer.
KB

[OldState]

OldState,
Don't know what to say, I'm not a scientist, all I do is drink beer and not trying to understand any kind of law regarding gases.
But if you go by what you say, then just use 100% nitrogen, don't even worry about the CO2. From what I have read, this will flatten beer totally.
Also I don't think there is any nitrogen in the beer (liquid??) or even in the beer gas mix, nitrogen is always a gas, a tank of beer gas or Guinness gas has liquid CO2 on bottom with the nitrogen added to space above CO2. And don't go by what gas retailers do, I've read horror stories in the forum, if they have a choice of selling straight CO2 for $20 or mixed gas for $40, whether they need it or not, I'd say they want the money instead of doing what is right for th,e customer.
KB

Yes, I'm sure they want to sell more beer gas, etc because you get less gas per tank. If I wasn't considering Guinness on tap I would not use it at all.

As for Guinness, if you agree that there is virtually no N in the beer then wouldn't Guinness go totally flat under "Guinness Gas"?

As for internet myths about N in CO2 tanks see post #5 and check his sources.

[PointPleasantNJBeerguy]

I see you posted this on Beeradvocate too..Just buy a seperate No2 tank and regulator for your mix gas and be done with it.I think your trying to over think this whole deal. OR just buy another type of Stout that doesnt run on Nitro. There are a lot of better stouts out there than Guinness anyway..

[OldState]

I see you posted this on Berradvocate too..Just buy a seperate No2 tank and regulator for your mix gas and be done with it.I think your trying to over think this whole deal. OR just buy another type of Stout that doesnt run on Nitro. There are a lot of better stouts out there than Guinness anyway..

Not in the Style of Dry Irish Stout IMO which the style I prefer. Not sure if all that will fit and in my set up I can't run an outside tank

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
I was going to post a bunch of stuff regarding nitrogen infused beers, but try searching and see for yourself. I admit there might might be a little nitrogen in Guinness, but extremely little, also are you saying it doesn't have CO2 "(if) no N in the beer then wouldn't Guinness go totally flat under "Guinness Gas"?".
Most installers and super moderators who are experts who have been doing it for years in forum will say you need a high nitrogen gas mix for Guinness and requires some CO2 in gas to work properly, they will also say pressure isn't just pressure, it depends on the mix of gases.
In a nutshell I found that nitrogen is is about 100 times less soluble in a liquid, most home brewers prefer beer gas (many different styles that they brew require the flexibility) and Guinness needs the high nitrogen mix to work right.
About mounting the gas tanks outside, you don't have to have the tanks next or near kegerator. I know you have a converted Haier that you use in cabinet, but you could run the gas lines, 5-10-15-30 feet away, and I don't think it would effect pressure going to keg.
KB

[OldState]

OldState,
I was going to post a bunch of stuff regarding nitrogen infused beers, but try searching and see for yourself. I admit there might might be a little nitrogen in Guinness, but extremely little, also are you saying it doesn't have CO2 "(if) no N in the beer then wouldn't Guinness go totally flat under "Guinness Gas"?".
Most installers and super moderators who are experts who have been doing it for years in forum will say you need a high nitrogen gas mix for Guinness and requires some CO2 in gas to work properly, they will also say pressure isn't just pressure, it depends on the mix of gases.
In a nutshell I found that nitrogen is is about 100 times less soluble in a liquid, most home brewers prefer beer gas (many different styles that they brew require the flexibility) and Guinness needs the high nitrogen mix to work right.
About mounting the gas tanks outside, you don't have to have the tanks next or near kegerator. I know you have a converted Haier that you use in cabinet, but you could run the gas lines, 5-10-15-30 feet away, and I don't think it would effect pressure going to keg.
KB

I'm saying that Guinness or any other beer served that way are carbonated (CO2) to a lower volume and PUSHED with nitrogen/Co2 mix to allow high pressure without over carbonation to mimic a cask pour. According to what I'm reading on the internet I would expect Guinness to lose its carbonation as well with a 75/25 mix...but it doesn't.

The creamy head is almost all CO2 not N. When we made a "nitro" beer we CARBONATED to about half the level of a normal beer. No "nitrogenation". Then we pushed it with a 60/40 mix and the presentation was EXACTLY like Guinness, Boddingtons, etc. Thick creamy head with the expected cascading effect.

Please excuse my skepticism. I truely appreciate the advice. Its just that in my home bar research on beer and home brew forums I have found a lot of misinformation mixed in with great info.