long draw foaming

[mctripj]

ok, first i will post the stats for the system i am working with.

80' run with 6' of rise.
5' 3/16 restriction on each of 12 beer lines.
2 input, 2 return glycol lines in the trunk line.
cooler temp is 36°
beer temp at faucet is 36.8°
the end of the trunk line is split to 2 towers with a glycol input and return going to each.
each tower has cold plates on the shanks for the glycol to cool them.
the beers are arranged left to right as follows:
tower 1
-alaskan oatmeal stout
-alaskan esb
-bud
-bud light
-alaskan amber
-alaskan summer
tower 2
-margarita on tap
-redhook ipa
-guiness
-pyramid hefe
-heineken
-coors light

ok, now to my problem. all the imports and craft beers pour great, but the domestics pour like there is a hotspot in the line. i get a second of foam then about 10oz of clear beer, then foam. i will have to go back to the site to check and see what all the pressures are at, but up until a week ago the entire system was working fine. i installed the entire system 4 months ago and have cleaned it every 2 weeks per A-B standards as my job de****ion dictates. the problems started about 2 days after the last cleaning. any help on this is appreciated.

-jomo

[draught guy]

Check your pressures,are you using a blender? check pressures going into the blender they need to be at least 50-60'.When pressure is to low your beer will break up and pour as you are describing Also check to see if your pump on your powerpack is pumping

[Beer Dr]

Hope your using a blender:
5' 3/16" 15 lbs. restriction
6' lift 3 lbs. restriction
80' run (5/16" trunkline)8lbs. restricion (3/8" trunkline)4.80 lbs. restriction
1 lb. hardware
Total 5/16" trunkline = 26lbs.(4 lbs. high even with a blender) 3/8" trunkline =22.8 lbs bearable with a blender 60%CO2/40%N2
Did you make sure all product lines were touching glycol lines when making connections? Did you wrap all connections with moisture barrier tape and foil tape?
Micro Matic Blenders and Trumix Blenders will shut down when primary pressure goes below 50 lbs. from the primary regulators on either the CO2 or the N2 tank, so you should know right away if low pressure at the tanks is your issue.
Your temp at the faucet tells you your pump is working, 80 ft run and your faucet temp, pumps working
fine

[mctripj]

blender? no, the account is insistent on using a premix 70%/30% that they get in 100lb tanks.
oops, i should have proof read the initial post better, the run is only about 50 ft of 3/8.
all product runs along the glycol and are properly wrapped(i know that for a fact. another co-worker did that part while i was doing other things so i had to go back and re-do almost all of the connections at the towers). i checked the liquid temp in the cooler and it is at 40°, air temp is 36°. since the beer gets even colder in the lines (down to 36.8 by the time it gets to the faucet), could this reduction in temp while in the lines be a factor?
i checked all the pressures and most of them are 18-22 with the exception of guiness and the margarita line. the domestics are on the lower end of the spectrum, so i will go and see about getting those all raised.
hey, thanks alot guys!

-jomo

[mctripj]

ok, so i set the pressures on the bud/light (since those are the two i was most worried about) to 22/21 lbs respectively and they are pouring like dreams! i thought that might have been the case with it not having enough psi, but i also thought 18psi would have been sufficient. anyway, thanks a bunch, guys! we all appreciate it up here!
p.s. anyone know where i can find resources on restriction ratios by line size/length and CO2/volumes of beers?

-jomo

[mctripj]

thanks, jeff.
yeah, there are a few design flaws. unfortunately, i was only given what i had to work with and had to make it work then and there when we did the install die to time constraints. i will let them know about the problem with the premix blend of gas, but thats what they went with because of the guiness being on the same gas line as all the other beers(and the distributor who does guiness doesnt have a draught tech that can do more than kind of clean lines), AND that is what they use for the soda... yeah. but we all know how some customers "know best" and wont budge when it comes to some things. anywho, thanks again for the info.

-jomo

[Beer Dr]

I have to disagree. The only way to have this system balance out with a flow rate at the faucet of 1 gpm is with the pressure I've described. To lower the pressure you would have to shorten the 3/16" at the tower. As far as the 1/4" trunkline goes, with the new kool-rite towers having, 7.5 lbs of restriction, 1/4" line limits the distance you can go, especially if there is any kind of lift.

[Scott Zuhse]

Jeff,

First, before you get to Tom, you need to go through me - an ex-brewery advanced workshop instructor! Second, other than your warehouse test and statement about "all systems do this", most of what you claim is understood quite well. Even by the technicians who believe and practice the 70% you claim is worthless.

Your systems may have issues with breakout and foam. The systems that Tom and the rest of the staff at MM have designed and/or installed seem to be performing just fine while protecting the product from the keg to the glass. If you want to start a debate that would be worth your while, pick on those gas company reps who continue to spew there crap about how great the beer gas is for retailers.

As for mctripj, what is the temperature of the glycol chiller bath? When you state that the glycol is split at the towers, it it looped or are the lines "T'd"? Third, have you performed a flow test? Last for now, have you performed a leak test on the pressure system?

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Beer Dr]

Jeff, I'm in the middle of installing a 24 product system with a 35 ft. run and a 14 ft. lift. The system has a custom 24 product Kool-Rite tower. I'm installing a dual blender because the customer wants to have two stout style beers. My main reason for now installing blenders is this. I installed a system about four years ago, two towers, one first floor, one second floor, with a blender. I went into the account one day to clean the lines and noticed on a humid day that the tower was not condensating. The glycol pump went down and the customer didn't even know. The faucet temp was 49 degrees. Customer said a couple people mentioned it being warm, but failed to notify me. Try that with straight CO2. Straight C02, as soon as you get above 38 deg. your running foamy. This make a difference on a saturday night when you have a band and you can serve beer as opposed to not being able to serve anything. I'm not advocating warm beer, but in an emergency, straight Co2 won't cut it. With this in mind can you design this system with 1/4" line, straight CO2 or beer pumps to run @ 49 deg at the faucet?
As far as beer pumps go, as stupid as this seems, sometimes bar backs are limited as far as common sense goes. I have an account that has had two beer pumps go bad at different periods of time. It seems when the pumps go bad the will pump beer out the exhaust. On a busy night the bar backs tapped 6 half kegs on one line not realizing the beer was being pumped down the sump pump in the basement floor. The second time 4 halves went down the drain.
I've been doing this for 31 yrs. and right now I can say, when I put a system in, I have no call backs unless there is a mechanical problem. Never any flashing, 1 gpm, unless the customer wants it slower, then I will add more restriction, 5/16" trunkline when possible, I'm a firm believer in the blenders, not pumps, I'm open to 1/4" trunkline on short runs with relatively limited lift. I agree we need to limit the amount of beer going down the drain during the cleaning process. And yes I still believe the 1/4" limits your run depending on lift. Most of the chain restaurants, the coolers are on the same level as the towers, with limitations, and a blender you can do 1/4", most mom and pops coolers are in the basement. Show me a 25 ft run with a Kool-Rite tower with a 14 ft. lift on straight Co2, without pumps.

[Scott Zuhse]

Jeff,

During our workshops we advocate the use of 100% CO2 for those systems that temperature can be maintained at the keg and from the keg to the faucet. Normally direct draw systems only. In some cases we will even specify a blender for a direct draw. Particularly for a remote area. All other systems are specified with on site gas blending until the pressures are in the high 30's to 40's when pumps will then be recommended. Even with the pumps, we recommend propelling the kegs with an appropriate blend to take temperature out of play.

The only time 100% CO2 can be successful is when temperature can be maintained 24/7 at the keg and throughout the system. This limits it's application. Air shaft systems are notorious for temperature issues, not to mention the use of vinyl tubing. With this, we advocate the use of a gas blender, again with the application of the correct ratios, with the use of 1/4" or 5/16" ID barrier for trunk replacing the majority of vinyl. If this is not critical thinking, what is?

Think about all of the systems that Perlick has sold and installed successfully. We probably should define the word successfully. How many thousands used an air compressor? This is where we differentiate ourselves from the rest of the industry. We can design, provide, consult and install systems that dispense draught beer successfully from the keg to the glass - to strive for the lowest pour cost possible for the retailer and to encourage resale by maintaining quality.

Is there still room for improvement? Absolutely! We are aware of all the issues you present. We are also aware of the deficiencies in the industry as to knowledge transfer. This is why we are conducting numerous workshops at our facilities and at beer wholesalers across the country.

My mistake on the 70%. Although the 30% comment still stings. We don't profess to be chemists or engineers. Nor do we try to convey such detailed information so that techs can dispense beer on the moon! But we believe that today as well as in the future we will be on the leading edge as to dispensing draught beer successfully from keg to glass whether it will be a hundred systems or hopefully a few thousand.




Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Scott Zuhse]

Jeff

my comments on your list:

AB comment on CO2 blanketing the beer in keg - sounds absurd but have you disproved this?

While at Coors, we never advocated 100% CO2 at higher pressures than what was called Ideal Gauge Pressure. Pressure which was based on the temperature of the beer at the keg and elevation. I would like to know exactly which worksheet you are referencing. E-mail please.

AB comment on 30% CO2 - gee, might be that blanketing thing again!

Perlick comment - they are in the equipment business. protecting the quality of the beer has never been their focus.

Ab comment on the 100% CO2 for systems to 50' Certainly if they can maintain temperature and it is a four foot vertical lift. Otherwise, must be that blanket again.

Coors has always used splicers and tailpieces no smaller than 1/4" ID. This was based on the plated fittings that are specified to be 3/16" but were normally smaller. Caused major issues with the higher carbed Coors products. We never ever had any issues with connections failing. Are you chewing on your line?[xx(]

Coors blend information was provided by McDantim. During my stay, indeed we dictated specifications for our beer. As to the volume specification change - I would be the last person on the face of the earth that they would communicate this to. Maybe they changed this since after I left. Possibly the new regime simply could not handle the high carb stuff.

Ab and 3/16" shanks. They probably know that the Coors' distributors will drill them out for them anyway.

BLM - You were not there. The recommendations were based on the tests performed on the actual hospitality lounge system and additional tests in the lab. The results were analyzed by the Coors' lab which is well respected in the industry. They wrote the report and based on this the recommendation was made to utilize this technology to support the conventional cleaning practices. Unless you have friends at Coors who have access to this report and can get this to you, I would not be to critical of it's application. You advocate critical thinking. You should be excited about any technology that can be applied to a system which can assist in the cleaning process. It is not Coors' or LG Smith's fault that the application of this technology has been bastardized by distributors who use it! Do I believe it will work in the field? NO. Not due to the device not working, but due to the lack of execution by the those who use it.

Perlick again - as above - not draught quality oriented!

Your comment on not using vinyl tubing in air shaft systems. Isn't that what was indicated by the previous post:

quote:The only time 100% CO2 can be successful is when temperature can be maintained 24/7 at the keg and throughout the system. This limits it's application. Air shaft systems are notorious for temperature issues, not to mention the use of vinyl tubing. With this, we advocate the use of a gas blender, again with the application of the correct ratios, with the use of 1/4" or 5/16" ID barrier for trunk replacing the majority of vinyl. If this is not critical thinking, what is?

Never mentioned anything about you being down on MM. I wish I had the time to research every little detail associated with draught beer. Just not enough time. I do believe that we have the opportunity to provide systems today more so than any other time that can successfully dispense a quality draught while yielding maximum profit. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. I just wish there was another hour in the day.








Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Beer Dr]

Jeff
Sorry it took some time for me to get back to this, been very busy. I don't understand the need to have the system balance out at lower pressure if your using a blender. Unless your using a higher CO2 blend than 60/40. I'm having very much luck with 60/40 @ 22 LBS. Second part, Scott, during the class two years ago, I checked my notes, you said that the Guiness people had told you that the new faucet had 19 lbs. of restriction, and that they were suggesting 34/36 lbs. of operating pressure. If this is true and the average restriction in a kegerator is 15 lbs plus the faucet 19 lbs.= 34 lbs. Now if you build 22 lbs. of restriction into a long draw system, now where do we want to be. You stated that 28 lbs. @ 28% N2 is where you want to be. If this is the case than 75% N2/25% CO2 @ 34 lbs. is way out of the ball park

[Scott Zuhse]

Beer Dr,

When it comes to specs like that, I would remember this. Sure you are not talking about another instructor? When I discuss this section of the workshop, I note that you should build each line with the same restriction across the board. Guinness folks will tell you that they want a certain pressure at the faucet to acquire the cascading pour (I forgot what that is) and to adjust the pressure from 28 PSIG for direct draw up to 40 if required based on the length and restriction built into a long draw system.

Now who is to say that the Guinness is going to be dispensed from thaat line all the time. If it is removed, your are set up for an ale or lager.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Scott Zuhse]

quote:Earths atmosphere is 264000 ft deep and is .038% CO2. The bottom 100 ft isn't all CO2. Also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure Daltons "law", not "daltons theory" and http://www.mcdantim.com/pdf_file/Beer%20Gas%20101.PDF

Not talking about earth but the inside of a keg. Not agreeing with this philosophy and will not disagree until it is disproved.

quote:No, but they taught to restrict based on an operating pressure for Coors beer on all lines in a python. Go toward the lower flow rates for inexperienced staff and frozen glassware on the sheet. Not hard to imagine a system with 21lb of restriction designed for straight CO2

Sure would like to see that e-mail!

quote:my testing is at http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/beer/explain.html

That was a little humor. Fully aware of McDantim's research. Respect and convey this info daily.

quote:no, but it is what they teachin their class for installers

Thank god for Perlick schools! Job security for me.

quote:I've never seen it but Ive bought all my tailpieces from you and from foxx. Must have been from before my time.

Before your time.

quote:my point here was they encouraged blend selection based on maintining 2.8vol at 22psi, as if only coors was on tap

Setting your standards high is a beautiful thing! During workshops at Coors, I pointed out that these specs were specific to Coors and may not be correct for other products. That is why I am excited about Micro Matic. I have an opportunity to work with just about all the brewers.

quote:I wish they wouldhave published it if it worked so well. No way I would spend $140,000 on that thing when virtually the entire industry disputes their findings, and their own references dont believe it enough to follow the BLM guidelines

If you thought you had a technical edge over your competitor, would you send them a nice letter stating the nature of this technology and how it will kick their butt? No different then the recipes they covet or the ingredients they use for brewing. Not all information is normally shared among brewers or other folks in the industry.

I am excited that we are now down to 10%. But still not satisfied. I don't like dwelling on theory or as you call it, b.s. As stated earlier, there is still more work to be done. Do we have to be so perfect that we can dispense beer on the moon? Probably not. Can we work together solving issues versus spending time dueling on this forum? Hope so!





Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Beer Dr]

Scott, It very well may have been Tom, both you and he did the first class at Allentown. The formula above is what I have been using, but became confused with your post about the 28% CO2 @ 28 lbs. I usually build in 22 lbs. for all the lines.

[Scott Zuhse]

Continue to build to 22 lbs. Adjust the stout line pressure up until that perfect pour is acquired. That workshop was almost four years ago. Great memory!

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute