Long Draw cleaning problem

[wineglow]

I clean lines in a new restaurant that has been open since December. 24 lines, dual blender, FOB’s, Perlick european style faucets. Perlick equipment and Perlick installed. .Lines are about 125 feet long. Since June customer has been reporting very foamy for up to 12 hours after cleaning, Prior to that everything was fine.

Recorded everything the last two cleanings ( cleaned every two weeks) Before I started cleaning the walk-in cooler Liquid temp was 37 degrees, Glycol cooling bath read 30 degrees and first beer poured hit the glass at 37 degrees.
Glycol chiller is above cooler and requires a ladder to get to it so I don’t turn off unit while cleaning.

After cleaning the walk-in cooler was 40 degrees, glycol bath was 34 degrees and beer in glass was 41 degrees. Two hours after cleaning all temperatures were back to pre cleaning temperatures and beer was pouring fine. Two hours later the restaurant open for business - The first four or five pints out of each line poured ok then they started pouring foamy. Next day they were fine,

I have tried using different types of cleaning fluids, rinsed in ice cold water, checked PH to make sure chemicals out of lines. My pump is rated at 600 feet - I tried cutting down to only 2 lines at a time instead of 4. I even switched cleaning days to a day when they weren’t as busy and kitchen did not get as hot.
You can see the beer change to foam coming out of the faucet so glassware has nothing to do with problem, but as part of our service we check the glassware and the glassware is “beer clean” and glass is chilled to 38 degrees the same as pour temp.

This restaurant also has in-line type inventory control units. I have these same units in 10 other places I clean ( some with lines longer than these and have no problems) Every time I clean 1 ½ kegs goes down the drain because of the long lines – 36 kegs a year so customer is not happy wasting more beer because of foam.

I was able to find out that the original installation included Perlick smart couplers which kept on shutting off even on a full keg and caused a foam problem and they had to be replaced with the standard wall mount DCF 100 FOB’s. If a bartender forgets to reset a FOB when changing a keg and the line empties out when the new keg empties that line is foam until the next day. Based on this info I am guessing that gas is being trapped in line and the line is not completely packed after cleaning. Since this problem just started is the summer temperatures and fact that trunk line is above kitchen a factor?

Am I on the right track ? Any ideas, solutions?

[Dirtbag]

Wineglow-
Please tell us the exact process that you do to put beer back into the lines, and at what point do you reset the FOB.

[wineglow]

When the rinse water PH is back to normal , I put the fresh cleaned faucet back on and put the keg coupler back on the keg, bleed the FOB off so the float goes to the top, draw the rinse water out of line until I have clear beer. Before I leave I reset all the FOB's

[ajayjohn]

Do you have the ability to check the return Glycol Temperature separately?

[wineglow]

The glycol unit is above walk-in cool, I would have to get a ladder and climb up and see if return linit was accesable. The local Perlick distb always puts chiller on top of cooler which I never do when I install. Since the beer hits the glass at 41 degrees immediately after cleaning and is down to 37 degrees in the glass 2 hours after cleaning I did not think it was an issue. If there is a good reason to check it I will.

[Dirtbag]

Wineglow-

I think you are drawing the beer back to the faucet through the FOB in the 'clean' setting, which as you know allows liquid to flow freely with out tripping the FOB. The problem is FOB's in the clean mode seem to cause the beer to foam, for some reason it agitates it, as the beer swirls through the FOB and out into the line. I'm not saying that every FOB everywhere does it, but it happens. I have seen several accounts that have a FOB on one or two lines, (god only knows why) and the other lines do not, and after a cleaning the beer with FOB's on them will pour nothing but foam until you reset it and put it into pour mode and draw past that point.
I think it has something to do with the air bubble at the very top of the FOB when it is in clean mode the float drops a little.

So I think your pulling foam from the FOB through 120 feet of line, and then reseting the FOB, but the foamy beer is already in the line. So probably what's happening is the glycol system is doing it's job; as you know, as beer cools foam is suppressed, but there is too much (120ft) and not enough time for the system to cool all the foam back to liquid before they start pouring. So they are able to draw a few pints here and there but there is still foam in the lines. That would also point to what you said about everthing being fine the next day, and before you clean too. In other words, once they work their way past the point in the beer where the FOB was reset they have no problems.

So, you can reset the FOB, and then pull all the foam out of the lines until you get to the 'reset' point and the beer is clear. -They end up doing this themselves anyway, just not all at once like you would.
Or. you can go to the faucet, and pull the beer a few feet past the FOB, go back to the FOB and reset it, then pull the beer back to the faucet. So there should only be a few feet of foam and then it should come clear. It doesn't matter if there is air or what ever in the line ahead of the FOB, just get the beer from the keg past the FOB and on it's way out the line and reset it.
Try it and see what happens.

FOB's are the biggest waste of time, money, and product, of anything in the beer world that I have come across, in my humble opinion. Designed to turn off the flow of beer when the keg empties and not 'blow' at the faucet. I guess someone saw this as a problem. Same thing happens with a direct draw-
I have yet to see one installed for the sole reason it was designed.
It seems they are too often installed to pad the bill, or to cure a different problem, a problem a properly balanced system wouldn't have. Not only that but they are also difficult to keep clean properly, and many times bar staff have no idea how they work or what to do with it if they have to change a keg.
They are just a general pain in the butt, with no benefit in my opinion.

[Brianatkcdraft]

Amen dirtbag! testify brother! cya brianatkcdraft.

[ajayjohn]

Do you have the ability to check the return Glycol Temperature separately?

Some packs have two temp guages built in so it might not be hard. If the glycol leaves at 30 but comes back at a much higher temp, like it will after cleaning or shutdown, it can cause a problem especially when there are "hotspots". Hotspots are usually caused by more than one factor. Certainly there is the routing of the trunk too near heat sources, but there are also problems caused by poor installation and or poor quality control when first manufactured.

Does Perlick still use metal glycol lines? These can kink during installation and slow the glycol flow causing slow recoveries.

[DCullender]

Could not disagree more about the use of FOB's. I put FOB's in every installation over 100 feet and have had very few problems. In fact, a major chain is test driving them is 3 of their stores in Richmond with plans to go regional.

If you take the time to train the store's management and bar staff in the proper use of the FOB you eliminate most of the problems.

You mentioned "the same thing happens in a direct draught box", well, yes it does, but there is a huge difference between 5 feet of 3/16 beer line and 125 feet of 3/8. 1 pint of foam to return to beer after changing kegs compared to 5 pitchers of foam (equates to 60 oz of beer) on the remote system is a mighty big difference in beer costs and labor costs.

These two points are great selling points to a restaurant that is fighting high operating costs.

Take the time to learn the benefits and correct useage of this item and you just might change your mind from accusing those of us that sell the FOB's of "padding the bill", to seeing the added feature this gives my proposal and the additional profits it gives me and my customers.

Also, if you've ever tended bar for a living, you know the value of not wasting time pulling foam through your beer lines during a game or happy hour! Did it for 15 years and would have loved to had FOB's on my lines.

Now, for the original problems on this thread, I'd recommend checking the gas pressures in the cooler and check the gas source to make sure it is providing enough gas to keep up with demand.

Also, check the power pack for proper function. What size is the power pack? If you have 24 lines, is it two 12 product line trunk lines? At 125 feet a 12 product trunk line is equal to 188 feet. This equates to a total run of 375 feet.

You need a Power Pack rated for 500 feet. If you have anything less, it will take much longer to reach and maintain constant temperature of 28 degrees.

You need a model 4414 or 4420 (perlick model number). Model 4404 or 4410 are rated at 150 and 300 feet and will not cool this system. Older Perlick model numbers start with "42" but last 2 digits remain the same, and cooling capacities are similar.

Dennis

[DCullender]

Yes, Perlick still uses copper tubing in their trunk lines. Major PIA when running this line.

They do sell a trunk line with polyethelene tubing for the glycol lines, but push the copper lines.

I've used Perlick, Glastender, Chill-Rite, Wonderbar trunk lines and consider the Micro Matic trunk lines as the best.

Dennis

[Dirtbag]

DCullender-

Points well taken.
I would rather hook everthing up in a series, if I had to, to avoid using a FOB, but that's just me.
The problem wineglow has is with the FOB's, in my opinion, if it were the power pack they would be having problems all the time, not just a little while after he cleaned.

[TwistedTap]

First off try setting the powerpack down to 27F, ambient temp should be around 10F increase by the time it hits the taps. Keep the tap temp closer to the beer temp of 37F in cooler. this should help eliminate the foam!

[TwistedTap]

Have you guys ever heard of the "Flooded trunk" system we use in canada??

[rmrefrigeration]

i know what the problem is, deal with it all the time, email me, or pm me and ill tell you the solution

[DCullender]

Twisted Tap,

I'm curious, what's the flooded trunk method?

Dennis

[DCullender]

rmrefrigeration, come on man, share with the rest of us.

I still think he is warming the system too much and the power pack is either too small to recover quickly or needs service.

Dennis
The Draft Doctor

[Scott Zuhse]

Interesting posts folks.

Dcullender - nice to know the hair on the back of your neck can raise! Great point on educating the retailer and assisting them with lowering their pour cost!

Rmrefrigeration - don't do this to us. Post your solution or not at all!

Personally, I am tired of folks blaming FOBs for their problems. Yes indeed they become dirty! Guess what? They are also a window into the rest of the system! So if it looks like a Chia Pet is growing on the inside of the FOB, be aware that the rest of the system is probably in dire shape as well. This may be telling you something about your cleaning practices.

TwistedTap - what in the world is a flooded conduit? Must use a lot of glycol! Is this new technology? Or is this really just a flooded chase? Hopefully this is new technology since the systems in Canada can use all of the help they can get with all of the air compressors still in use! Fill us in!

Wineglow - I would hope that by now you would know how to operate FOBs. If so, this should be a non-issue.

When was the inventory control system installed?

I feel for you and all line cleaners out there! You are a path of least resistance when it comes to foaming problems at retail. It is easy for retailers to blame you for anything that goes wrong. Your cleaning could coincide with the keg deliver schedule. Retailer might be tapping warm kegs!

Learn as much as you can about the system you are maintaining and the account itself. Offer a PM program to prevent issues with the system. Is the glycol power pack's condensor dirty? Glycol bath deteriorated and thus freezing? Pressure leaks? Correct pressures? Etc.

By the way, no need to run these systems under 29F, unless you want to encourage chill haze.

[DCullender]

Hey, Scott

Yeah, this ol' Jarhead still has a fight or two left in me. Push the right buttons and the hair on the back of my neck stands up like a wild boar.

But we are amongts friends here on the Forum and ain't nothing being said that good conversation and a cold pint can't fix.

Wineglow, did you ever figure this one out? I agree with Scott on the line cleaners being blamed for everything, our fault or not.

I once had a restaurant owner claim I "broke" his freezer simply because I was the last one he saw working in his store.

This is also the reason I do not schedule any normal maintenance on Thursday or Friday. Anything goes wrong over the weekend, including his dog dying, would be me fault!

Dennis
The Draft Doctor

[wineglow]

Now that the outside temperature drops down to the 30's at night and daytime temp is in 50's the system operates ok. Now the Perlick people can't blame the cleaner anymore and will re-route the trunk line so it doesn't go over the kitchen. It turns out the new route will be a few feet shorter. Thanks to all for their help.

[Scott Zuhse]

This is either an undersized power pack or a power pack that has not been maintained due to the location on top of the cooler. Dirty condenser, glycol mix unstable, etc.

During the months of May, June, July and August when the temperature soar, so do the areas above the walk-in cooler. Phones begin to ring off the hook since the power pack, which performed OK during the cooler months, is now incapable of maintaining temperatures. Particularly struggles to bring the temperature down after line cleaning.

Unfortunately this manufacturer chooses to take the path of least resistance by blaming the line cleaner versus taking on some accountability themselves.

[svengahl]

Beer foaming is generally caused by two variables, pressure and temperature. Try clening the lines using cold water and a Diversol PM cleaner solution. Also try also using a Singex flush on very third cleaning as well as a Diversol cleaning. Also you only need to clean the lines every three to eight weeks depending on the climate, length of run and amount of prouct dispenced or not dispenced.

Beer gas is the way to go, try and get your customers to convert. Beer gas is cleaner and increases the life of the product. Most people don't know draft is not pasturized and has a shelf life of 30 days from the fill date stamped on the keg, if the product is transported and stored at the correct temperature. On air the keg is good for 7 days, on beer gas you can get three weeks.

FOB's are the greatest invention. They stop the beer once the keg is empty and when you tap a new keg you bleed them off and it was like you never had a keg go empty. I believe the problem you are having is that you have those Perlick keg coupler FOB's, called Smart Couplers, and they are not very smart as you can't bleed them off. I would use a wall mouned FOB, like the ones from Quick Chill, as you can bleed these off.

If your beer is warm before you start the cleaning process chances are that your cold line unit is adjusted incorrectly or is too weak to handle the load. Could also be the way the truck was run. I have seen them run right accross the hood of the grill in the kitchen and they wonder why they are having foaming problems.

Stay away from the Flooded Trunk, there is a major design flaw in that if the beer lines have a failure they can take on the glycol and you can be dispensing a contaminated product to your customer. Twisted Tap needs to go back to school.

[Scott Zuhse]

Not certain where you are getting your information. Your cleaning cycles are somewhat stretched out and warm circulation is much more effective than cold.

What are you referring to in terms of the beer gas. Please define what ratios you are recommending.

Air? Air? That has been taboo for a few decades now less those draft system distributors whose only focus is on clear beer versus what is being presented to the customer.