Beer Forum

darck1 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006, 01:41 PM

So... My "first install" in my home bar went great. It was a pain the bu77 but when I poured my first glass of Sierra Nevada it looked and tasted fine. The pour was a little slower than would be perfect so I started to do my research in order to get a perfectly balanced system.
I have a converted chest freezer. I had 9 feet of 3/16"ID in a 2" PVC conduit to an air cooled tower on my bar. There is a (60CFM) blower mounted in the freezer.The cold air returns back to the freezer via a 4inch flexible aluminum duct that is around the 2" pipe. The duct is heavily insulated. The lift is 4'.

I am serving Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Michelob Ultra Amber. Both of these are in sixtels and are served from 1 5# tank of CO2 at 14PSI. The temp on the freezer is set to 38F but it seems to vary down to 36F. (However, 38F is more usual)

I have to stress that at THIS POINT the beer was pouring fine, if a little slowly.

Now on to my troubles...

After I did all my research and realised what a crazy amount of restriction I had in my line I calculated that the "perfect" balance for my system would be 8.5ft of 1/4"ID and 15 inches of 3/16"ID as "choker".

After a ton of messing around and trying to get the line in the tube without wrecking my system etc., I finally got everything ready.

I let things settle down a bit and then poured my first Sierra... POW! All foam. I poured a second glass and it seemed okay but after 10 minutes or so... POW! Foam again. I looked in the line and I saw bubbles coming into the line out of the coupler end of the keg and gathering in the bend there. Same with the Michelob Ultra Amber.

I'm thinking two things...

1) The sixtels seem to have the same height as a full keg and there is not much clearance in the chest freezer. Unless I use a low-profile Sankey the line gets a little compressed (but not too much) by the freezer when I close the lid. This problem may been exacerbated when I used the thicker line (1/4"ID) at the keg end.

2) My math was totally bogus and my restriction is just not enough.

I'm working on #2 right now. I got a couple of 1/4" - 3/16" splicers from MM so I can add a little more choke to the keg end of the line.

Opinions anybody?

I've researched "bubbles in the line" type problems on here and elsewhere and I've seen numerous posts ranging from "not enough CO2" to "too much CO2"... to the point where I'm posting this with as much info as possible. Correction: I haven't put a stopwatch on how long it takes to pour 10oz or anything like that but it seems to pour okay once that air bubble is out of the way. I also haven't taken the temp of the second beer out of the faucet, as I REALLY don't think temp is the problem, but I can assure you that it's cold.

I've checked my fittings various times. There are no nicks or anything like that and all the washers look good (I even replaced them). My line was cleaned before I put everything back together with the new line and I used MMs lube on the fittings.

ernestbud · #2 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006, 04:03 PM

what pressure are you running at? you know you can't always trust the gauges on the regulators sounds like low pressure and of bad sankey

ernestbud · #3 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006, 04:05 PM

ok let me back up i see where you said 14psi how far of a run is it from the keg to the faucet? on these small direct draws i still say all you need is 5' of3/16

darck1 · #4 (**permalink**) 11-01-2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ernestbud

ok let me back up i see where you said 14psi how far of a run is it from the keg to the faucet? on these small direct draws i still say all you need is 5' of3/16

As I said, I'm using 9ft of line... it's 9 ft from faucet to keg.

darck1 · #5 (**permalink**) 11-01-2006, 12:59 PM

*bump* *bump*

ernestbud · #6 (**permalink**) 11-01-2006, 05:21 PM

deppending on how much that freezer lid crimps down the line that may be the kicker I think with the 1/4 and the 3/16 both you have too much resistence and along with the crimped line that is the prob try 4' of 3/8 and 5' of 3/16 @12-14psi and see what happens

darck1 · #7 (**permalink**) 11-02-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ernestbud

deppending on how much that freezer lid crimps down the line that may be the kicker I think with the 1/4 and the 3/16 both you have too much resistence and along with the crimped line that is the prob try 4' of 3/8 and 5' of 3/16 @12-14psi and see what happens

I'm 99.9999999999999999% certain that I don't have too much resistance. I DEFINITELY had too much resistance beforehand and the beer was pouring fine (if a little slowly). My calculations still look good on paper.

I don't want to buy any more line. I have 1 (and one only!) low-profile sankey fitting. This is what I'm going to do (although PLEASE!!!!! I would still like advice on the bubbles coming out of the keg!)...

I bought 2 1/4" - 3/16" barb splicers. I'm going to splice a few inches of 3/16" on to the keg end. I'm going to put one of these on to the low-profile sankey (the Sierra Nevada cuz that's the good stuff). The other one (Michelob Ultra Amber) I'm just gonna have to live with if it's not right. At least if I splice the same amount of 3/16" on each one I'll know that it's the fridge lid causing the issue if the Michelob Ultra Amber still gets the bubbles.

ernestbud · #8 (**permalink**) 11-02-2006, 07:16 PM

the larger diameter needs to be on the keg end so it should be 1/4" going into 3/16 otherwise you are giving your beer an expansion chamber

darck1 · #9 (**permalink**) 11-03-2006, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ernestbud

the larger diameter needs to be on the keg end so it should be 1/4" going into 3/16 otherwise you are giving your beer an expansion chamber

My low profile sankey doesn't accept 1/4". Could you please tell me what is meant by your statement?

darck1 · #10 (**permalink**) 11-03-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darck1

My low profile sankey doesn't accept 1/4". Could you please tell me what is meant by your statement?

Okay... so now I'm a little more knowledgable having read up on wave dynamics etc.

From the little I've read (and I'll be the first to admit that I'm by no means an expert after half an hour of reading), at the flow speeds and pressures we're dealing with, it doesn't make that much difference...

beerboy52 · #11 (**permalink**) 11-04-2006, 10:05 AM

It seems that your pressure is fine at 14psi as is your temperature at 38.

I think you have a couple of different problems though. The first is the explosions of beer/foam at the beginning of your pours. Check the rubber gasket on topof the keg for divots or cuts. If there are any return it to the seller for a replacement-- it can only be replaced at the brewery.

The second is your restriction is wrong (both times). For a 9ft run at 38 degrees with a 4 ft lift you will need approximately 12 lbs of restriction. Try 5 ft of 3/16th in hose and 4 ft of 1/4 in hose, with the 1/4 in hose attached to the tavern head. (It will fit on the barb if you soak it in hot water and then slide it on.) This will give you 12.2 lbs of restriction. (4ft of 1/4" = 1 ft of 3/16th" restriction-wise.)

Restrictions function is to slow down the speed of the beer (as it leaves the keg) and to keep the gas in the beer suppressed until the beer is in the glass. Not enough restriction and the gas breaks out of the beer while it is still in the line.

Good luck

darck1 · #12 (**permalink**) 11-13-2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerboy52

It seems that your pressure is fine at 14psi as is your temperature at 38.

I think you have a couple of different problems though. The first is the explosions of beer/foam at the beginning of your pours. Check the rubber gasket on topof the keg for divots or cuts. If there are any return it to the seller for a replacement-- it can only be replaced at the brewery.

The second is your restriction is wrong (both times). For a 9ft run at 38 degrees with a 4 ft lift you will need approximately 12 lbs of restriction. Try 5 ft of 3/16th in hose and 4 ft of 1/4 in hose, with the 1/4 in hose attached to the tavern head. (It will fit on the barb if you soak it in hot water and then slide it on.) This will give you 12.2 lbs of restriction. (4ft of 1/4" = 1 ft of 3/16th" restriction-wise.)

Restrictions function is to slow down the speed of the beer (as it leaves the keg) and to keep the gas in the beer suppressed until the beer is in the glass. Not enough restriction and the gas breaks out of the beer while it is still in the line.

Good luck

I really don't get this... How can 5ft of 3/16th + 4ft of 1/4" = 12.2 lbs of restriction?

http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-...-pid-547C.html
http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-...-pid-548C.html

Isn't 3/16th 3 lbs of restriction per foot? According to Micromatic's beer line catalogue it is... that equals 15lbs of restriction right there... Then add 4ft of 1/4" brings it up to... 0.85 x 4 = 3.4, 3.4 + 15 = 18.4 lbs of restriction.

Could you please tell me how you're working the math?

happytappy · #13 (**permalink**) 11-14-2006, 03:48 PM

according to On Tap software, the Sierra could be run at 11.515 psi with 9' 2" OF 1/4 hose. The Mic Ultra Amber would balance at 12.615 psi with 8' 2 1/4" of 1/4" and 9 3/4" of 3/16. The Volumes of co2 are so different between the 2 beers you would need a seperate regulator for each.

edramshaw · #14 (**permalink**) 11-15-2006, 09:13 AM

If I can hijack this thread for a moment.....

What are your thoughts on the On Tap! Software. Is it worth the time and money? I would love to hear anyones thoughts on this. Thanks.

darck1 · #15 (**permalink**) 11-15-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happytappy

according to On Tap software, the Sierra could be run at 11.515 psi with 9' 2" OF 1/4 hose. The Mic Ultra Amber would balance at 12.615 psi with 8' 2 1/4" of 1/4" and 9 3/4" of 3/16. The Volumes of co2 are so different between the 2 beers you would need a seperate regulator for each.

Thanks happytappy. I didn't know the CO2 volume for Sierra Nevada. No wonder this one is so much more lively than the Mich Ultra Amber.

I wish I knew the formula that "On Tap" was using. The way I work it out, it would be 10 ft of 1/4". (Assuming 1/4" to be 0.85 restriction)

I'd need an extra half pound of pressure on the Sierra since I'm about 1200 feet above sea level.

I guess I'd be looking at 12 for the Sierra and 13 for the Mich, rather than the 14.5 I'm running for both right now.

Bah! Another regulator?!? Don't you have a cheaper solution? :-p

happytappy · #16 (**permalink**) 11-16-2006, 10:46 AM

Instead of another regulator, engineer 1 more pound of resistance into the sierra line, 4 inches of 3/16 @ 3 #/ft should be it. Run at 13 #. Remember that will only work for Sierra or similiarly carbonated beers.

darck1 · #17 (**permalink**) 11-16-2006, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happytappy

Instead of another regulator, engineer 1 more pound of resistance into the sierra line, 4 inches of 3/16 @ 3 #/ft should be it. Run at 13 #. Remember that will only work for Sierra or similiarly carbonated beers.

Yeah, thing is - I'm almost at the end of my Sierra keg and I've over-carbonated all this time... I bled it and then re-pressurized. It's looking better but it's a little lively. I can't have that many pints left. After the day I've had today, I'm sure I'll find out how many...