Need help, narrowing down on the foam issue

[RickRedden]

Here's what I've got:

Kenmore kegerator, with a fan inside moving air around
Temp of beer after second pour is 39 degrees
Miller Light
5 ft of 3/16 line
1/4 keg
CO2 on 12 psi

When I first attached the keg last weekend it poured beautifully all weekend. The right amount of foam.

The second weekend it is pouring 50%+ foam. This is the second keg in a row to do this to me!

Last weekend when it worked the beer stream looked like pure liquid and poured at a good speed.

The second weekend the beer stream looks carbonated with tiny bubbles in it and pours faster.

What am I doing wrong?

I cleaned all lines with the right chemicals between kegs and am using clean room temperature glasses.

I have not fiddled too much with CO2 pressure because it worked the first weekend. Given the way I described the carbonated looking stream should I experiment and turn the CO2 up or down?

Help appreciated.

Rick

[bonefish]

What kind of foam are you getting? Is it creamy, or thick bubbles? If the keg has never been below 39 degrees, I don't think its overcarbonated. I would do the flashlight test from Scott's blog.
http://www.micromatic.com/keg-beer-b...e/carbonation/
If you can't do that, add 2 psi and say a prayer.

SEAN

[RickRedden]

Creamy... I lowered the PSI to 9-ish and it was better tonight. I'm going to check it tomorrow, I worry about it going flat... Any more thoughts?

[2004blackwrx]

Im fairly new to this but from everythinjg I read dont leave the CO2 at 9 PsI bring it back up to around 14 PSI for Miller lite in order to prevent it from going flat. I actually have the same exact setup. I am also On my second keg Of Miller lite. I have been having similar issues as you are describing. Some nights it pours perfectly and othe nights it does not. I think my main issue is that my tower isnt cool because If I pour two glasses in a row the second one seems pretty much fine. Also are you keeping a eye on your pressure I know I set mine but then it changes so just make sure your kegrator isnt doing this.
One last thing I heard at a homebrew store just recently is that they recommend lowering psi when pouring to get the beer to have perfect head and then return the psi back to 14 when your done drinking. I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as far as keeping the keg from going flat. From everything I have read I havent seen any post of people lowering pressure to pour.

[RickRedden]

Thanks for the input... even though the lower pressure seemed to help with the pour, I was worried about it going flat like you indicated and raised it to 12 today, may take it up to 14 as you suggested. I also lowered the temperature, am trying to get it down a degree or two.

Do you think there is any chance the CO2 gauge that comes with these Kenmores is off and is reading higher than it actually is?

One tip I'll pass to you: I was getting ice on the cooler unit in the back and so installed a computer fan, blowing up over the cooling coils and it has kept it from freezing and has kept the temperature much more consistent and manageable.

Let me know if you figure this out. Its frustrating when I get a great weekend out of it once a new keg is first hooked up and then heavy foam from the next weekend on!

Foam seems to be a common issue but it just shouldnt be this hard!

[2004blackwrx]

I definetely understand the frustation. Last week I actually order two pc fans for my kegerator. They should be in by this week at which point I will intall them. One is to circulate the air and the other is to cool the tower. I will let you know how it comes out. If I achieve any success I will let you know. Please do the same if you figure it. Its nice to find the someone with the same exact setup. Hopefully between the two of us we can find the perfect setup.
As far as the regulator goes I am wondering about the quality of it myself. Maybe come christmas time Ill ask for a dual refulator from micromatic and see if that helps any either.

[RickRedden]

I agree, maybe we can figure this out together.

Bookmark this thread and we'll keep in touch with tips.

I've gotten the temperature down a couple of degrees and turned the CO2 back up to 12-14 range so am hoping to see improvement tonight.

If that doesn't work, I'm going to assume the guage is off and start trying it at successively lower pressures and see if I can keep it carbonated but correct the foam issue.

The instructions on this kegerator actually say to keep the pressure at 8 --- go figure.

[KillianBoy]

RickRedden,
Placement of fan can make the world of difference, most people who run tower coolers place fan box at the bottom of the unit, it pulls the coldest air up and then warmer air flows back down. If your fan is not pulling off the cold air off the very bottom of the unit the coldest air may linger and cause the very bottom of the keg to get colder then the top, the beer comes from the bottom of the keg through the spear, coupler then beer line.
I’d turn thermostat a little warmer maybe ¼ to ½ inch movement warmer. When you get the beer from store and in kegerator for a day, the temps are correct and as it sits in inconsistent kegerator it gets too cold causing temp difference between top and bottom, causing foam and 38 degree beer.
PSI should be set to manufacturer specs and not to control flow.

KB

[Nick406]

I also have the same kegerator. I installed 10 ft of beer line in my Kenmore. I could probably trim it to between 8 and 9 to optimize the pour but I'm satisfied with what I have going. The longer line definitely solved my foam issues. I also had a problem with the regulator in the unit. I would pour two or three brews in a row and the pressure would drop and not return to where I had it set. I probably should've done a little more troubleshooting but I purchased a new regulator instead. I wanted a dual gauge regulator anyway.

[RickRedden]

KillianBoy, my fan is about 9 inches off the bottom blowing up (generally over the cooling coils). I keep a thermometer in a cup in the bottom and it cycles between 35 and 38 degrees depending on when the condenser has been running. But beer is consistently about 39 degrees.

Nick406, my regulator is doing the same thing: it drops slowly after several pours. Have you gotten the sense that it was "off" from a PSI standpoint and if so by how much?

I'll probably get a new regulator and will definitely get the longer line.

Any idea why I get a good couple days of pours when I first cool and tap the keg and then it gets foamier after a week?

Still amazes me that you have to after market these things so much to get a decent pour!

[Nick406]

I believe my gauge was reading the correct psi. I did the flashlight test as well as calculating the correct pressure from one of the charts (using beer temp and volume of CO2) I found in another thread. When I completed the flashlight test my pressure reading on my gauge was right around the value the chart suggested. That tells me my gauge was fairly accurate.

As for the inconsistent foam issue I'm not sure. Maybe as the keg empties, the beer near the bottom of the keg is colder. ? The fan you're installing should fix that problem. I'm new to the kegerator game but I know with the people on this site you'll get it straightened out in no time.

[2004blackwrx]

Yea the longer line is what I wanted to try. I asked about it at the homebrew store and they kept telling to lower the pressure for pouring and that didnt seem right to me and everyone on this site agrees not to lower the pressure. I finally convinced them that I just wanted to buy the beer line even if a longer tube made no sense to them but unfortunately they didnt have the size I needed. Once I install my fans I will see how that works and if its still not perfect I will order the longer beer line(im hoping the fans will be the difference since two continus pours seem to work fairly well for me. Maybe not perfect but great compared to what I usually get.). I dont care if my pour is slow I can deal with that. I just want perfect head and my beer not to go flat.

As a side note I Just purchased a 12 pack of 16 oz grolsch style bottles with the flip top stoppers to transport beer In. I filled my bottles up and drank them later that night. It was still fresh. It took some work and I made a mess but it was worth being able to bring my keg beer with me so I didnt have to buy bottles. Now I can really enjoy the costs savings of my keg.

[bonefish]

Good job on the Grolsch bottles. I use half gallon "growlers" that you can find online or at your favorite brew pub. It's good for several days. I attached a link to mine, $5.00.
Glassware - Abita Beer - Distributor Store - Point Of Purchase Items - Glassware - Abita Beer Glass Growler - Abita Beer - Abita Brewing Company - Abita Amber - Purple Haze - Turbodog - Restoration Pale Ale - Jockamo IPA - Andygator - Abita Light
SEAN

[2004blackwrx]

I got both my fans and installed the last night. One is a typical Pc fan that is a few inches off the bottome of the kegerator and blowing up. THe other pc fan is a blower style. I have a hose attached to it with the beer line running inside it up to the beer towere. I can feel the return flow, not sure if the return flow is as well once the door closes but the tower is cool to the touch. I tried beer last night and it was still foamy. I know that due to the door being open the fridge may not have been the right temp at that point. I will have a better Idea if I was successful this weekend. Also it may be possible with the amount my pressure changes on its own at times this has screwed up my keg enough where it may have become impossible to get good pours out of it. I will let everyone know how it turns out this weekend.

[RickRedden]

Thanks for the update... I've got a new keg and just ordered some longer line and a double gauge. I'll let you know if the new after-markets help!

[TheElite0ne]

I got both my fans and installed the last night. One is a typical Pc fan that is a few inches off the bottome of the kegerator and blowing up. THe other pc fan is a blower style. I have a hose attached to it with the beer line running inside it up to the beer towere. I can feel the return flow, not sure if the return flow is as well once the door closes but the tower is cool to the touch. I tried beer last night and it was still foamy. I know that due to the door being open the fridge may not have been the right temp at that point. I will have a better Idea if I was successful this weekend. Also it may be possible with the amount my pressure changes on its own at times this has screwed up my keg enough where it may have become impossible to get good pours out of it. I will let everyone know how it turns out this weekend.

i am having the same problem. 50-80% foam on the first pour and perfect pours immediatly after. If I let it sit for more then 15mins it goes back to foam. It has to be the beer in the lines from the cupler to the tap is getting warm therefore foamy. Pressure has nothing to do with it because if the pressure was incorrect then all pours would be foamy... not just the first.

I have 2 PC fans and 1 blower fan. 1 PC fan is 1" from the bottom blowing up and the second is on the keg blowing at the coupler. I just rigged the blower fan with a T-connector and ran the tube up to the keg and the other side ran up the tower. I put the beer line inside the blower tube hoping it would keep the lines cooler. Hopefully this works.

[2004blackwrx]

I have to agree with you that the pressure is not likely the cause if after the first pour you are good. One other thing I noticed is you mentioned you have a fan one inch of the bottom. Just something to think about. Mine is more like 3 inches off the bottom because I realized up to a certain point that if the fan was to close to the bottom it didnt blow as hard. Basically mine is as close to the bottom as it can be without having the fan lose its blowing strength. Since I have installed this fan I have noticed consistent temp through out the fridge. About 30 degrees. Prior to the fan it was about 29 degrees on bottom and over 35 degrees on top.

[2004blackwrx]

Thanks for the update... I've got a new keg and just ordered some longer line and a double gauge. I'll let you know if the new after-markets help!

Thats exactly my next course of action if my fans dont work. I think I am going to start with 12 ft of line. Let me know how it works out. By the way is your new keg also miller lite. Im thinking of trying yuengling next time it was only $15 more and will be a nice change, But I still got a couple weeks to go.

[TheElite0ne]

here is my setup. I have a converted kenmore chest freezer with a JCI temp controller.

Elite MS Paint Skillz!

[RickRedden]

Yes, my new keg is Miller Light. Let me know how Yuengling goes.. love that beer but can't take the extra calories! I'm doing my set up tomorrow and will provide feedback.

[ph52ml]

Rick,
You mentioned that you clean the lines but are you also taking apart and cleaning the faucet and coupler? I have a Kenmore Unit and was also having foam problems with kegs of Miller Lite. My symptoms were not the exact same as yours but similar. I tried a lot of the things you are trying and nothing seemed to solve the problem. Finally solved the problem last weekend, turns out the faucet was dirty. Do you use the scrub brush that came with the unit to clean all the fittings? I also added a 8 ft line that helped slow my pour down a little and now getting perfect pours at the right psi.

[RickRedden]

I do clean all the couplings and have been putting the faucet in the solution and swishing it around but have not used the scrub brush, will do so today. I added a two guage micromatic pressure set up (love it) and also an extra 4 ft of line (takes me to 8 ft after snips). Pours are great now but that's how its been so far --- first few days great and then foam. So I wont know until this weekend if I've closed in on the problem. I'm hopeful but we'll see.

[2004blackwrx]

Elite One just wondering if you are feeling the beer coming out of the hoses on both ends of your beer line. Also Make sure your beer is 38 degree or a degree or two colder. Air temp is not beer temp. My air temp is close to 30 degrees to get my beer to 37 to 38 degrees.

Rick glad to hear you may have achieved success. After last night I think I can declare success myself. Hopefully it lasts. Last night all my beers had about two inches of head. Not perfect but way better and made me happy. Would have been less head if I had a longer beer line. I say this because the beer came out of the faucet clear so Im guessing the little foam I got was from the beer hitting the warm class and pouring slightly too quick so with a longer line like yours I should be perfect. I realized that after my fans were installed I wasnt getting good pours because my beer temp has rose. There was ice on the cooling plate so the fridge wasnt cooling as efficiently as it should and my beer was up to 39 degrees. I defrosted the fridge quickly and gave everything a day to cool and now I think I am good. I will include defrosting with my beer line cleaning with every new keg.
Yea I am looking foward to the yuengling myself. The calories are definetely higher so I probably wont have it as my usually keg but it will be a nice change.

[RickRedden]

Well, things are looking pretty good.

So here's what I've done since I got my kegerator to settle the foam issue:

1) bought digital thermomter and keep it in a cup of water in the kegerator to monitor temperature. I also use it to periodically double check beer temp on second pour.

2) added computer fan inside to circulate air, wired it through the drip hole and pointed it from lower middle up over cooling coils, also helps prevent frost. This has helped me get the temperature down to consistently 36-38.

3) bought premium dual co2 gauge to get a precise fix on pressure. I'm keeping in on 12 psi.

4) increased beer line length to 8 ft. This significantly reduced the flow rate but still leaves it at a tolerable level.

My new keg of Miller Light is still relatively new (tapped yesterday and hit then and today) so too early to declare victory but I am liking what I'm seeing so far and am optimistic.

$75 bucks roughly in after market work to get a good pour but it it holds will be worth it!

Thanks to all for insights and tips. I'll repost after a week or so and update how its doing.

Rick

[dbball22]

I was having the exact same issues....I had turned down my psi so low that I was getting C02 breakout in the line right above the coupler, like many people mention. I live at high altitude (about 6800 ft) in CO, and found that I was getting foam when I set my psi anywhere close to the recommended amount of 12-14psi. I had 5' of 3/16" line, with various beers at 38 degrees. I had tried Bud Light, Laughing Lab (Scottish ale), Beehive (wheat), Fat Tire....all with the same result, either foam at high psi, or C02 breakout in the line. I finally went and bought 10' of 3/16" line at the home brew store, and was able to put the Fat Tire keg all the way to 14psi, eliminating the bubbles coming up from the coupler, and still able to pour a pint with just the right amount of foam. It seems like the original poster figured out his problem, but if anyone is at high altitude or anyone has similar problems I suggest you try lengthening the line. I was very surprised at how much the speed of the pour was affecting my foam issues!

[RickRedden]

One week later and all is still working... the new guage and longer line seemed to seal the deal. The fan is also critical. Luck and thanks to all.

[2004blackwrx]

Im still looking good myself. I was a little worried at first cause I realized that I was at the end of my second keg when I finally started getting good pours. Then i remembered my last twenty beers from my previous keg had good pours too. I was worried that maybe it was something to do with the end of the keg and my setup still wasnt good. Luckily I tapped a keg of yuengling Monday and for the last two nights my pours have been perfect. I think I finally got it dialed in. Like everyone says CO2 and temp are the most important. Its a little difficult getting used to getting it perfect but once you figure it out it is well worth it.

[beergut]

Glad to hear you guys have solved your foam issues. I am new at all of this but in the 2 days I have joined this forum so much has been learned. I know your issues are fixe, but one thing I learned is that the entire faucet has to be disassembled and cleaned from time to time. Mine was packed with black sludge and causing pure foam. After proper cleaning its like a new system.

[RickRedden]

Three weeks and two kegs later, foam problem remains solved... I truly believe that the key was: longer beer line, a good co2 gauge, and a fan to circulate cold air. $75 worth of after markets for a consistently good pour. Thanks to all on the board for input, advice and assistance. Paying it forward.