Stock Regulator-Foam, Bud Light, Temp?

[40percentrobot]

Ahoy!

Sorry for the cryptic post topic - trying to be succinct.

Anyway, I've had the Sanyo BC-"whatever" for about a month now; I'm on my second 1/2 barrel of Bud Light. The first one was cashed in about 2 weeks (I'm hoping that a good portion of the consumption was foam...either way, it's a hell of a lot more economical than cans or bottles.)

After lurking this board, I have certainly learned a lot about this endeavor we call beer-drinking.

I had a lot of problems with the first keg. Foam. Foam. Foam. Got to the point where I'd pour off several seconds worth of foam, then fill the glass - complete with foam. Had air in the beer line. Ran out of 5 lbs of CO2 in 3 days (turns out my regulator wasn't properly tightened to the bottle.)

Had 13 lbs pressure, according to the gauge. Kept the interior @ 38F. Pour temp was 38F (with calibrated analog thermometer.)

Thanks to this forum, I constructed a tower cooler - PC fan w/ copper heat sink shoved into a cardboard box wrapped in aluminum A/C duct tape into the blower. Tower is cool to the touch.

This new keg has been better - a bit less foam, but still wasteful.

My questions are as follows:

1 - I'm in Texas. The keg is kept in the house. The beer hose is whatever length came with the unit (haven't measured, sorry.) Is 13lbs suitable pressure?

2 - Is the stock ("Taprite") regulator accurate enough? I know this is a manufacturer-sponsored forum, and I plan on purchasing a Micromatic dual regulator, but I am still curious.

3 - The interior temp is 38, and now the pour temp is 36 or so. However, the foam that comes out into the glass is warm. What does this mean?

4 - Each pour (even in quick succession) starts with a short "blurt" of foam, then follows up with cold beer. I am tilting the glass, etc. but the foam grows. Am I pouring incorrectly? Is this indicative of an ineffective tower cooler?

5 - I opened the top of the tower to reveal where the beer line connects to the actual tap. I observed tiny bubbles migrating toward the tap end of the hose. Is this normal? After reading several posts, I am confused and worried - does this mean my beer is over- or under- carbonated?

6 - Finally, I have the CO2 bottle inside the cooler. Will this have an effect on the pressure reading?

Sorry for the long post - just wanted to be as specific as possible!

Thanks,

Chris

[40percentrobot]

Maybe my initial post was off-putting? I dunno.

Anyway, I would really love some solid advice here. As I mentioned before, I have cooled the tower, my interior temp is 38F, my pour temp is 36F or so...

I have even backed the CO2 pressure down to 8 PSI - no dice. Still a bunch of foam.

Anyone?

[psychodad]

How are you drawing a glass? Are you snapping the faucet open and then back close at the end of the pour. Trying to meter the beer by barely opening the faucet will cause turbulence.

Also check the skirt washer on the keg coupler and the sealing surfaces of the keg. The co2 needs to get in the keg and beer needs to get out. If the area that seals these two is leaking, co2 will get in the beer stream as you are dispensing.

[Waterloo]

I've had a similar problem. Have two 1/6 in my kegerator now. The Boulevard Pale went thru just fine. The Bud Select is foamy.

To be specific, it is 5-10 minutes between pulls. The first pull is as expected (foamy), but the second pull also starts out a bit foamy. You can see the "wildness" as it comes out of the tap (before it hits the cup). However, that wildness clears up within a second or two.

I believe this is all happening because of some air forming in my beer line between pulls. I had read that this might be due to low pressure, so I upped the pressure from 12 to 13.5, and made sure the temp was lowered (from about 40 to 37). Still same problem.

Once the beer is flowing, it looks fine. Just the first couple of seconds as the beer in the line comes out.

Any ideas?

[monkey710]

Had a similar problem with my Mich Ultra. Although it seems that 14 psi at 38 degrees is a good combo, in order to get the air out and a better pour I had to bump it up to 16psi at 38 degrees. Can't guarantee that this will fix it as it has the chance of overcarbonating the beer, but it is worth a shot. I would raise the pressure, get the air out by pouring a line length and see what happens. If no change, then lower it again.

[40percentrobot]

Great ideas, thanks!

psychodad, I am pouring in the recommended fashion- quick snap open, quick shut off.

I will check the seals tonight. Anything to look for in particular, or just make sure everything seems to seat correctly?


Haven't tried going as high as 16 lbs...I shall try that next if I find nothing wrong with the coupler seals.

Thanks again!

[40percentrobot]

Well, the seals all "looked" ok... No more CO2 leakage that I am aware of.

This is, of course, frustrating, as all of my fellow foam-drinkers can attest to. It's difficult to keep all of the variables involved in keg balancing in mind when you are troubleshooting - hard to remember that when you change one thing, it affects everything else (guess that's why they call it keg "balancing.")

I found the formulae on the web regarding beer line length. Turns out that my line was too long at 5 ft. So I chopped a foot off of the line. Nothing but foam, baby!

Then I was concerned that I miscalculated for my setup and now the line is too short. That fear was quickly quelled by the various posts of Scott Z which insisted that the length has nothing to do with foam. So back to the drawing board...

Then I start paying more attention to the WHOLE system. In all my various tinkerings, I failed to notice the massive amount of bubbles residing in my beer line. Then I had the notion to actually check the temp of the pour. Even the foam was hovering around 33F. I ended up bumping the pressure to 16psi and raising the temp a bit. From what I have gleaned from this site, these are two major causes of foam, which, by the way, seems totally counterintuitive to me, but beer and science are right more often than not.

Hopefully this will help at least a bit.

A couple of questions:

1) is it possible that a premium coupler will help?

2) I have the suspicion that my stock CO2 regulator was calibrated by a blind man. Are the premium regulators that much better?

Thanks for reading my ramblings, and hopefully, providing some more insight!

-Chris

[monkey710]

Well Scott is absolutely correct in that the line length has nothing do with foam. As much as balancing makes sense...based on experience is doesn't work.

I had a stock regulator and constantly tinkered with it over various kegs and neve had it right. Bought the premium reg and no problems. Don't know if it is the new beer and experience or reg...but much happier knowing it isn't the reg.

I recommend the premium reg...but try to get the pressure and temp right and it may solve problems. Order longer line to eliminate the pour errors.

In reality...38 degrees and 14 psi should be perfect for Bud light. I found 16 better for Mich Ultra but it was different beer.

Don't give up. I finally got it right on my fourth try...and I am glad now!

[joepizi]

Originally Posted by 40percentrobot

2 - Is the stock ("Taprite") regulator accurate enough? I know this is a manufacturer-sponsored forum, and I plan on purchasing a Micromatic dual regulator, but I am still curious.

3 - The interior temp is 38, and now the pour temp is 36 or so. However, the foam that comes out into the glass is warm. What does this mean?

4 - Each pour (even in quick succession) starts with a short "blurt" of foam, then follows up with cold beer. I am tilting the glass, etc. but the foam grows. Am I pouring incorrectly? Is this indicative of an ineffective tower cooler?

5 - I opened the top of the tower to reveal where the beer line connects to the actual tap. I observed tiny bubbles migrating toward the tap end of the hose. Is this normal? After reading several posts, I am confused and worried - does this mean my beer is over- or under- carbonated?

6 - Finally, I have the CO2 bottle inside the cooler. Will this have an effect on the pressure reading?

Sorry for the long post - just wanted to be as specific as possible!

Thanks,

Chris

2) I think the regulator would be accurate enough, especially if it is new, it does not have to be super precise to give you a good pour. I have tried anywhere from 11-14 psi for budweiser at the same temp and have had no problems with foam or flat beer.

3) I wouldnt worry about the temp of the foam. Foam is not dense and will not hold any temperature for long. If your glass is full of foam and is exposed to the room temperature for even a very short time, it will warm up to that temp.

4) If it is pouring an initial shot of foam, and then a couple seconds later the stream changes to just beer, yes that sounds exactly like your tower is not getting cooled enough. There are a lot of threads on making sure the tower is cooled. Keep trying the ideas in those until it gets fixed.

5) You are not supposed to have any bubbles in the beer line. Like others have said I think something is not sealed. Make sure you have a grommet where the beer line connects to the coupler, and make sure this connection is really tight. Sometimes a quarter turn can mean the difference between bubbles and no bubbles.

6) Having the C02 inside the kegerator will only affect the reading on the gauge that tells you how much pressure you have left in the tank.

[bonefish]

I have a keg that is pouring like its over carbonated. What is the best way to resolve? Lower the pressure and pour beer, or manually bleed the pressure from the keg and pour beer?
Poor Beer. Its not happy.
SEAN

[jackstraw]

Bonefish -

I would turn the CO2 tank off for a moment, while you release some of the excess pressure from the keg by pulling on the gas relief ring on the coupler. Then turn the CO2 back on at the correct PSI for your current liquid temp. It won't fix the problem immediately, since the beer has already absorbed the CO2, but it should hopefully balance out over time and get back closer to normal.



40percentrobot -

When you say, interior temp is 38, are you checking the liquid temp? Put a glass of water inside the kegerator and let it sit for 24 hours and then put your thermometer in the water.

To me, it sounds like you need to get back to the basics and make sure your liquid temp stays at 38 degrees and you apply the recommended PSI for that beer, I think it may be 14 PSIG. If you keep your beer colder, you need to drop the PSI one pound for every 2 degrees. If I'm trying to diagnose a problem, I check the temp once or twice a day at different times of the day (storage liquid temp & first pour temp).

One time I had a problem with a keg of Anchor Steam and it would spit foam at me on every pour... and I mean spit with force (it was a mess). I didn't have a lot of faith in the coupler, so I invested in a new/better one and that fixed the problem.

Good luck & don't give up.

[Scott Zuhse]

The number one issue with the initial shot of foam is a temperature difference behind the faucet. With gas in the beer, we all know what will happen if it is heated - expansion.

If we apply 14 PSIG to the keg for a 2.6 v/v beer @ 38 F, you will take care of business throughout the system until the warmer area behind the faucet. This is where the CO2 will breakout and collect. Open the faucet and first, out comes a shot of foam, then streaky and eventually clear beer. The beer clears since now the 38 F beer from the keg is cooling the faucet and the area prior to.

Tower cooling assists in overcoming this less the faucet temperature. If it is subjected to a warm area, not much can be done except focus on how the beer is dispensed. Preferably, watch the flow as the faucet is opened. If it is not clear, stop, dump this small amount out of the glass and then start over with clear beer. It is physically impossible to pour clear beer on top of foam that is already in the glass.

Regulator gauges can be off slightly. Possibly the vendor you purchase your gas from can check it for accuracy.

Be careful relieving too much pressure from an over carbonated keg. You may end up with flat beer.

Always calibrate thermometer in ice water and target temperature in that second glass of beer (chug first one).

[bonefish]

I noticed this morning, about 4 inches of air at the top of the beer line (not been used for about 12 hours). To see if I can correct that, I moved my fan box to the rear of the unit, next to the cooling plate. And the exhaust end of hose to the top of the tower. It's still about 9 hours till drinky time, so I'll report back then, if I remember.
SEAN

[bonefish]

...turned into 5 feet of air, in the beer line. And now I don't even get foam!
should I try replacing the keg?
Just kidding.
New keg. Working great.
SEAN

[40percentrobot]

Say, is the coupler (stock "Taprite," D style) supposed to have TWO check balls in it?

I know it's not a Micromatic piece, but unless I'm much mistaken, there should only be ONE check ball in the coupler...

Could this be exacerbating my foam problem? Perhaps the extra ball (if it is indeed extra) is causing all sorts of crazy liquid turbulence?

I discovered this whilst cleaning the system last night. At least this 1/2 barrel lasted 3 weeks.

BTW, the check ball retainer is all torqued and twisted-looking. Could this have an effect?

Thanks again for all the help!!

[psychodad]

There should only be one ball. As for the twisted retainer, it should be fairly straight. What this ball and retainer does is keep beer from poring out of the line when you uncouple the keg, it can be left out to see if the twisted retainer is causing turbulence.

[40percentrobot]

Man, I cannot wait until I have this problem licked.

OK. I removed the extraneous check ball before I tapped this new keg (Bud Light, 13 lbs, 38 degrees.)

Foam.

I removed the check ball retainer and the remaining ball.

Foam.

I just now ordered 10' of beer line and a new coupler (Micromatic, of course.)

Maybe this will help.

You should see my new tower cooler, though. It kinda looks like some sort of crazy flotsam jettisoned from a Soviet spacecraft - velcroed to the side of the kegerator.

Wicked.

[CoronaVegas]

Originally Posted by 40percentrobot

You should see my new tower cooler, though. It kinda looks like some sort of crazy flotsam jettisoned from a Soviet spacecraft - velcroed to the side of the kegerator.

Wicked.

Come on, I have to see a pic after that description. (Plus, I am debating whether to either go the project box or cardboard box route.)

[40percentrobot]

Ok, CoronaVegas, here it is...


Chris