Help! I think everything is right but still to much foam!

[PlanoSuds]

First I want to thank everyone for this forum! I have been reading and I have come a long way just searching the forum. But I have come to the end of everything I have read and I am running out of stuff to try. I hope I have done my homework here and not come for help without actually doing all I could.

My setup:
Beverage-Air Kegerator Club model with sliding top door. With tower cooling air hose which is working and insulated tower. (tower is cold)
5lb CO2 tank
Bought all new lines and couplers from MicroMatic
CO2 line is 5/16 clear tube approx 52" long
Beer line is 3/16 clear and approx 7'
Double Gauge - CO2 Primary - Premium Series
Item # 642
Self-Closing Faucet - Chrome Plated - Brass Lever
Item # 4933KSC
Coupling Nut, Wing Style
Item # 525
3/16" Stainless Steel Tailpiece
Item # 526BS
D-system keg coupler that came with kegerator. Bought System - Keg Coupler - Tap w/ Ergo Lever Handle
Item # 7485S-S but I think it is defective will explain later in post.
Pressure is approx 15 - 16 PSI
Beer is Coors Original (half barrel ,15.5 gal approx full size keg)
Beer hose is unkinked/no hard bends except at final turn in tower.
There is only a tiny bubble in beer line at the ends not significant bubbles.
Digital meat thermometer calibrated with ice water is reading 36 to 37 F liquid temp in cup of water.
Wirelsss remote thermometer is reading air temp from 34 to 40 F thermostat is turned down from max to get this. Beverage Air was able to go below freezing at max setting. Actually froze beer in line briefly. Also have IR touchless temp gun to read surface temps and some of those were in the 20sF at max setting.

Symptoms:
First pull is half or more foam. You can even see the stream turn to bubbles/turbulence and then back to liquid. In fact I swear it starts as clear and then goes turbulent and then goes back to clear.
I don't think subsequent pulls would be perfect but they are much better. After I pour off the half glass of foam I can get better pour with less foam but it is hard to tell if it is staying half foam since there is now less glass to fill so it might still be half foam. But at some point it does seem to go clear and stay clear.

Interesting note: Had pressure accidentally set to 20psi for a while because small guage is hard to read in the box. When this was the case the beer did not have the small stream of bubbles running up from the bottom it was just clear but did not taste flat and the foam was like wild beer it would really grow a lot. Now the foam is more like a head and not so wild and the beer has the little trail of bubbles from the bottom of the glass.

Bottom line: I am running out of stuff to tweak. So this keg has been thru a lot from too cold to too high CO2 pressure. I don't think it has seen too low CO2 so I don't think I have to worry about flat beer. But could this be damaged beer causing the pour problems now or is there still something I can tweak????


Note: D System - Keg Coupler - Tap w/ Ergo Lever Handle
Item # 7485S-S
When I untapped the keg with the lever on the keg coupler and removed the beer line with CO2 off the keg coupler was still venting gas from the keg with the lever in the "Untapped" position. So that I why I think it is defective. So the original keg coupler is the only part from the system that is has I bought it new. All the other parts are new. Interesting note is that I am about back to how it was behaving with all the old parts before I changed them all but I wanted to start clean to be able to eliminate problems....... I originally started the replacement program because I thought I had a CO2 leak. I had to read a lot before I found a post that indicated that a refrigrated CO2 tank will read 500psi on the high pressure guage all the time while cold.......

Sorry for the length and thanks for any help in advance!!!

[Scott Zuhse]

What elevation do you reside? Not particularly comfortable with this keg being subjected to multiple temperatures. Beer could be either over carbonated or flat. How much beer do you have left in keg?

That last paragraph threw me. Are you stating that the keg is venting gas or the coupler? Please advise.

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by Scott Zuhse

What elevation do you reside? Not particularly comfortable with this keg being subjected to multiple temperatures. Beer could be either over carbonated or flat. How much beer do you have left in keg?

That last paragraph threw me. Are you stating that the keg is venting gas or the coupler? Please advise.

Somehow I mistakenly started this thread twice. Could you delete one of them? In the other one I added that I am in Dallas Texas so roughly at sea level.

I would say that I am below half but really don't have a way to precisely determine how much is left in the keg. Going by weight when I took it out to swap the regulator I think I am below half.

The "new" keg coupler was still attached to the keg but the lever was in the untapped position. When I unscrewed the beer line there was gas venting which I would think was not right since the other coupler does not do that. I thought the keg would be completely isolated with the lever in the untapped position. I put the beer line back on to stop the gas and then disconnected the keg coupler from the keg and the venting stopped. My CO2 was turned off during this so I know it was venting the keg and not my tank..... I am surprised that what vented was gas and not beer but I guess since the CO2 was off there was nothing to push the beer out......

[Scott Zuhse]

When you unscrewed the beer line from the top probe (beer outlet) of the coupler, you had gas escaping from this outlet port? Have you disassembled the coupler to determine if the o-rings are damaged?

Visually inspect the seal on top of the keg valve to determine if there is any damage. If the inner raised seal (next to ball) is cut, gouged or broken it will allow gas to bypass keg and enter coupler.

Normally once the coupler is in the off position the gas from the regulator should be sealed and cannot move past the o-rings around the coupler. If it does, there is an issue with the o-rings.

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by Scott Zuhse

When you unscrewed the beer line from the top probe (beer outlet) of the coupler, you had gas escaping from this outlet port? Have you disassembled the coupler to determine if the o-rings are damaged?

Visually inspect the seal on top of the keg valve to determine if there is any damage. If the inner raised seal (next to ball) is cut, gouged or broken it will allow gas to bypass keg and enter coupler.

Normally once the coupler is in the off position the gas from the regulator should be sealed and cannot move past the o-rings around the coupler. If it does, there is an issue with the o-rings.

Since this is a brand new coupler from MicroMatic I did not disassemble it or troubleshoot it further since I expect to return it for exchange. There should not be anything wrong with a new part. Yes, there was gas escaping from the beer line port. The keg coupler I have that came with the system seems to be working ok so I will proceed for now with it since I have no reason to suspect it is causing my problem.

But I am much more concerned with what to do to my system from here to get rid of the excess foam/head.

What suggestions do you have for that?

Also, what if anything does it tell you when the bubbles from the bottom of the glass were gone when the pressure was up at 20psi but back when it was down to 15-16psi??? That seems odd to me and I was hoping it would give us a hint as to what there is that is still wrong.

I seem to notice a few clear rules like if there is bubbles in the line the pressure is low. But High beer temp, low pressure, and high pressure seem to all lead to the same foamy beer so how do you break it down from there??? Is there other factors that tell you if it is the beer or the pressure or the turbulence in one of the coupling points???? I am inclined to go colder on the beer for personal preferrence. I suspect that wll calm the foam some but I don't believe that it the problem.....

[Bpr Yam]

I too was getting the same foam issues. However after reading many of threads on here i think i have it solved.

all new parts from Micromatic- new beer line ( 7ft 3/16 ID ) , coupler, faucet and shank. Got the calibrated thermometer and left it in a glass of water in the fridge. I let it sit for 24-36 hours and noticed i was sitting at about 42 degrees so i would turn down the temp in small increments until i got to 37. Left the PSI at 12. I do not have a tower blower ( yet ) , but i am getting perfect pours every time.

I hope this helps some.

[mark_ksz]

Hello,

I was having the same problem... This may sound dumb but do you have a large tap handle on the faucet? This was my problem, I was not able to open the faucet fast enough and was getting alot of foam as a result. After changing my tap handle to a smaller style I have had perfect pours ever since.

[Scott Zuhse]

If gas was escaping from the beer port, the probe must be defective where it is allowing the gas to route directly into the chamber via a split or break in the probe wall. If this is the case, send it back for exchange.

As to the breakout from the bottom of the glass, this is normally caused by etching or soil that the carbonation from the beer is collecting to and then breaking free and rising to the top.

At this time your keg has been subjected to many different temperature fluctuations and and pressures. It is difficult to determine if it is over carbonated or flat. Easiest method of setting up your system correctly is to start with a fresh keg, determine actual beer temperature in the keg (preferably 38F) by pouring into a glass and then based on temperature, set pressure correctly. At 38 F, the Coors product would require 16 PSIG in Texas.

Just curoius, have you checked for seal damage on top of the keg?

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by mark_ksz

Hello,

I was having the same problem... This may sound dumb but do you have a large tap handle on the faucet? This was my problem, I was not able to open the faucet fast enough and was getting alot of foam as a result. After changing my tap handle to a smaller style I have had perfect pours ever since.

I would think that that might take a 2" head and make it a 1" head but I cannot imagine that fixing a glass half full of foam. I have a small handle but it the solid metal chrome one so it is heavy but small......

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by Scott Zuhse

If gas was escaping from the beer port, the probe must be defective where it is allowing the gas to route directly into the chamber via a split or break in the probe wall. If this is the case, send it back for exchange.

As to the breakout from the bottom of the glass, this is normally caused by etching or soil that the carbonation from the beer is collecting to and then breaking free and rising to the top.

At this time your keg has been subjected to many different temperature fluctuations and and pressures. It is difficult to determine if it is over carbonated or flat. Easiest method of setting up your system correctly is to start with a fresh keg, determine actual beer temperature in the keg (preferably 38F) by pouring into a glass and then based on temperature, set pressure correctly. At 38 F, the Coors product would require 16 PSIG in Texas.

Just curoius, have you checked for seal damage on top of the keg?

I agree that even if I get this keg to work I will not know what I have until I get a new keg and start over clean. I saw no damage to the top of the keg but I am not really very knowledgable about how such things look....

However I do have some new information that I think is very interesting. I called MicroMatic and spoke to Toby. He pointed out that I needed to have bled the gas off the keg from when I had the CO2 set to 20psi. Just getting the regulartor to say 16psi alone did not get the pressure in the keg down to 16psi. So I did this last night and it made a very small difference. BUT now I noticed that the symptoms are very distinct now.

If I pour a glass (half foam and half beer) Then dump the foam and drink the beer quickly then pour another glass I get a very good pour. Like a 2" head which would be major success for me although I know that is still to big in theory. So my read on this is that the beer in the 7' beer line is warmer than the beer in the keg. I would not have thought there would be a temp gradient of any significance but perhaps??? Anyway if the first glass gets colder beer in the lines then that could explain it. Or another explaination is that the glass is now cold??? Either explaination works but I should not need a cold glass so.... I have moved my cup of water for liquid temp measure to the top of the keg so I can see how different the temp is in the top of the box. Also I am using the pointed bottomed pilsner glasses are these ok for this???

I really feel that the answer lies in the fact that the second glass is good but I am not sure what conclusion to draw from the information.....

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by Bpr Yam

I too was getting the same foam issues. However after reading many of threads on here i think i have it solved.

all new parts from Micromatic- new beer line ( 7ft 3/16 ID ) , coupler, faucet and shank. Got the calibrated thermometer and left it in a glass of water in the fridge. I let it sit for 24-36 hours and noticed i was sitting at about 42 degrees so i would turn down the temp in small increments until i got to 37. Left the PSI at 12. I do not have a tower blower ( yet ) , but i am getting perfect pours every time.

I hope this helps some.

Thanks for the info!! Not sure what beer you are using but from everything I have read I need 16psi and at 12psi I would be risking flat beer and that would be worse than foam..... LOL

Amazing that you are getting a good pour without a cooled tower!!! This stuff is so odd. Sometimes I think this should not be so tricky but it seems like some pretty minor stuff wrong can make a big difference. But then I read where you with a non-cooled tower has no trouble from it and then I begin to wonder if I need to look for something big wrong rather than trying to slowly tweak things to get it right. In other words am I close?? or not! I really don't know.... LOL

[Bpr Yam]

Originally Posted by PlanoSuds

Thanks for the info!! Not sure what beer you are using but from everything I have read I need 16psi and at 12psi I would be risking flat beer and that would be worse than foam..... LOL

Amazing that you are getting a good pour without a cooled tower!!! This stuff is so odd. Sometimes I think this should not be so tricky but it seems like some pretty minor stuff wrong can make a big difference. But then I read where you with a non-cooled tower has no trouble from it and then I begin to wonder if I need to look for something big wrong rather than trying to slowly tweak things to get it right. In other words am I close?? or not! I really don't know.... LOL

I am in Colorado at about 6500 ft. Keg of New Belgium Skinny Dip. so thats why the lower PSI. It sounds like if you are getting a good pour on the second glass then maybe you are a canidate for a tower blower. Yes you are close. I too was looking for major problems and it turned out to be just some small fixes and now it works great. I have had my kegorator for a year now and i just got it fine tuned. Keep your head up and glass full and you will be there in no time.

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by Bpr Yam

I am in Colorado at about 6500 ft. Keg of New Belgium Skinny Dip. so thats why the lower PSI. It sounds like if you are getting a good pour on the second glass then maybe you are a canidate for a tower blower. Yes you are close. I too was looking for major problems and it turned out to be just some small fixes and now it works great. I have had my kegorator for a year now and i just got it fine tuned. Keep your head up and glass full and you will be there in no time.

Well I hope you are right that I am close but I don't think it can be a tower blower that is the issue. My kegerator is a Beverage-Air and it has a cold air hose that goes into the tower and it is working fine. The tower is both cooled and insulated so I think that is a dead end.

I keep trying to figure what it could be and I keep coming back to the temp of the beer line in the top of the box. Even with a tower cooled if the temp at the top of the box is too warm compared to the bottom then the beer at the bottom of the keg will be the right temp but the beer in the line will be warmer. The $64000 question is: Is that difference in temp big enough to be causing my foam problem. Perhaps I will find out when I check the temp of the cup of water in the top of the cooler where it has been all day today....

Thanks for the reply!!

[Scott Zuhse]

You will be pulling your hair out trying to balance a keg that has been subjected to pressure and temperature fluctuations. The only thing that the existing keg would be good for at this time would be to determine your temperature of the beer in the keg. Pour one beer in a glass and dump. Pour a second and determine your temperature with the calibrated thermometer.

Based on this temperature and the new keg acclimating to this, you will be able to set your pressure. If you are at 38 F, set your pressure at 16 PSIG for the Coors product which has 2.75 vols. of gas. If not, adjust PSIG one pound for every two degrees temperature difference. Up for warmer, down for colder.

Leave the seven feet of 3/16" as is. This has nothing to do with foaming issues. It simply controls how fast or slow the beer comes out of the faucet and transports the beer.

Another recommendation would be to get the cylinder out of the kegerator. It is difficult to determine how much gas you have left since the high pressure gauge reads low all of the time inside the cold environment of the kegerator.

[mcrambo]

Make sure the shank on your tower is drilled out to 1/4 " and I would get rid of the 3/16" tailpiece and use a 1/4".
Good Luck!

[Scott Zuhse]

Coors' products definitely like 1/4" ID shanks.

[PlanoSuds]

Originally Posted by Scott Zuhse

Coors' products definitely like 1/4" ID shanks.

Any idea what is the default on a Beverage Air kegerator? The thing looks like it would be rather hard to take apart from what I have seen when I have taken the cap off the tower. Is it difficult??? Or can I drill it while it is still installed on the tower????

[PlanoSuds]

Thanks to everyone for the help!!!

It appears that the problem was the keg and what it had been thru. I am on my second keg and it is working much better!!!

So what did I do wrong?

- First keg brought home and immediately tapped..... Not good. This one got almost 24 hours to settle before I did anything but put it in the box. Did much better that way!!!

- Subjected the keg to freezing temps. Did not know that my kegerator would go that cold...

- Had it sit at 20psi CO2 for over 24 hours.

So my primary concern was that this process seemed to be very touchy and precise but it was almost automatic when I put the new keg in. So hopefully anyone else reading this can learn from my frustration and not repeat it.

You can still enjoy the beer from a keg that has been thru the ringer but do not try to use it to determine balance. Just pour off the foam and wait it out.

Never tap the keg right after you get home. Let it settle.

Thanks again for all the help.

I would like to know if anyone knows how important the 1/4' shank is to dispensing and how I would go about that? Do I need to take it apart and how does one do that. The nut on that shank is huge and inside a 3" tower so that any tool really does not fit...... Can I just drill it in place? Will it make a really big difference.

Thanks!!!

[Scott Zuhse]

Call your local Coors wholesaler. Their techs are schooled on how to perform this procedure and should have an adapter which allows them to drill the shank without removing it.

Without the adapter, you could perform this yourself with a semi dull 1/4" bit. Enlarge the shank back about 3/8" deep. You better have a steady hand!

[amyjo]

I turned off the Co2 tank and took the pressure out of the keg. Then sat a pitcher under the spout until the beer started coming out. My problem was too much CO2 making the beer foamy. I have it set at about 5-7 and am having perfect pours.