Setting up from scratch

[780425abm]

Hi,

I purchased everything I need to install 4 different beers on tap in my bar in Brooklyn.

An outline of what I bought:

1. Economy Glycol Machine
2. T tower with 4 taps
3. nitrogen regulator
4. C02 regular
5. secondary 3 panel regulator
6. secondary single regulator

I intend to install 2 lagers (Brooklyn, Stella), 1 stout (guinness) & 1 wheat beer (Hoegaarden). They will be refridgerated inside a Beverage Air back bar fridge & I will run approx 15ft of glycol cooled trunk line to the taps.

I intend to use pre-mixed gas 1 for guinness and 1 for lager/wheat beer.

I have a series of questions I hope you can help with.

1. I will be running the wheat beer and 2 lagers of the secondary 3 panel regulator. What pressure should I set the gas to on at the source (gas bottle)?

2. What individual pressure should I set the beers on the secondary regulator. ie lager pressure? wheat beer pressure?

3. I will run the guinness of a pre mixed gas bottle, what pressure should I set the source regulator (at the gas bottle) and what pressure should I set the secondary regulator to?

4. How much choke line for the beer should I install from the trunk to the beer tower bearing in mind that the total distance in probably 18ft?

5. What is the ideal temperature to keep the fridge at based upon the type of beer inside it?

6. The economy glycol machine does not have an electronic temperature regulator. I assume the dial above the glycol inlet/outlet is a temperature controller. what should I set it to and how would you recommend I monitor the glycol temperature and what is the ideal temperature for the glycol?.

7. Aside from cost savings are there any other benefits to the gas blender?

8. Why was I recommended to buy glycol Ubends and what scenario exactly should I have to install them?

Thats it... Thanks

[Scott Zuhse]

1 & 2: If this is 100% CO2 and your temperature is a constant 38 F, set the primary at 30 PSIG and the secondary regulators at 14 PSIG. You may have an issue with the wheat beer. Find out what the carbonation specification is for the wheat beer. This will determine what pressure it will require.

3: Set the primary at 40 PSIG and start the secondary at around 28 PSIG and adjust up until you acquire the Guinness pour you desire.

4: If your tower is a Kool Rite tower, the bar is on the same floor and you are using 5/16" ID trunkline, install one foot of 3/16".

5: 38 F degrees liquid 24/7/365. American consumer drinks more beer at this temperature and the carbonation in the product is most stable.

6: Your assumption is correct. At an imaginary mark at 12:00 high, set the dial at 4 7/8 to 5. Raise the lid on the bath slightly and rotate it so that it is askew with the pump still in the bath. Place a calibrated thermometer in the exposed corner and ensure that the compressor shuts off at 29 F and turns back on at 32 F. Be aware that the condensor fan runs at all times.

7: The gas blender is an accurate source of blend gas as the cylinder blend is not. It is capable of producing two different blends - one for the stout 25% CO2/75% N and a second one for the ales, lagers and wheat (60% CO2/40% N). The secondary blend is utilized at 22 PSIG to the kegs. This higher pressure compensates for temperature fluctuations while preserving the recipe of carbonation in the beer. 100% CO2 is incapable of accomplishing this. If you want to maximize your profit from the investment in the system and draught inventory, this technology is "Best Practice". The use of 100% CO2 and cylinder blend gas is old technology and the product's integrity will suffer. (Use three feet of 3/16" with the blender).

8: The conduit will enter the back bar unit with two glycol lines and four product lines. The two glycol lines need to be routed back out of the unit to the glycol chiller. The u-bends allow you to turn the glycol lines back in the opposite direction out the same hole if it is large enough. Or, route the lines out of a separate hole in the refrigerator without using the u-bends. Insulate the glycol lines even if they are inside the refrigerator.


Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[780425abm]

In response to question 7:

1. You state use 3 feet of 3/16" with the blender. Are you refering to the choke line for the beer used to link the trunk line to the Kool Rite Tower? And why do I need to use 3 feet with the blender.

2. I was planning to use 75/25 mixed gas bottle for the lagers but you mentioned that this is old school. Are there known problems with this for example, does the gas mix seperate in the bottle over time?

Thats all thanks

[Scott Zuhse]

With the use of blend gas the pressure to the kegs will be approx. 22 PSIG. This is one advantage of using blends. Higher pressure to compensate for temperature fluctuations in systems and for pressure drops in remote systems. 100% co2 cannot accomplish this. CO2 pressure is based on the temperature of the beer in the keg. No more, no less. Not much flexibility.

With 22 PSIG, the goal is to balance the system with enough restriction (measured in PSI) in hardware, gravity, and tubing to acquire 128 oz./min flow speed at the faucet. This is accomplished through building a system with 22 PSI of restriction against the beer while pushing it with 22 PSIG. Call it fluidtronics if you will. Assuming that you are using a Kool Rite tower @ 7.5#s; 1# for the jumper line from the keg to the wall bracket in the cooler; 4' gravity vertical rise @ 2#'s; 15' of 5/16" I.D. Valpar Brewmaster II @ 1.5#s, this equates to 12 PSI of restriction. 12 PSI short of 22. 3/16" choker has 3 PSI per foot. three feet allows for 9 PSI. Actually, three feet four inches would be ideal to install between the tower and the 5/16" Brewmaster II line based on the above assumptions.

As to the 25% CO2/75%N, it is very difficult to place two different gasses in the same bottle and expect to consistently acquire the same mix through out the duration of the cylinder. Even if you could, you would be using a mix designed specifically for nitrogenated beers such as Guinness Stout. Very low carbonation levels with these types of beers. Ales and lagers have double the amount of gas and to maintain this level of gas you would require a mix of approx. 60% CO2/40%N. Mixture designed for stouts would allow ales and lagers to degass with in a short amount of time. Be aware that carbonation in beer has flavor characteristics. You change the recipe of gas in the beer, and you change the flavor. The blender technology is accurate, capable of producing the correct blends and gives you piece of mind so you can sleep at night knowing that the first glass of beer out of the keg will taste the same as the last.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[USMC - Retired]

quote:Originally posted by mmcscott

The blender technology is accurate, capable of producing the correct blends and gives you piece of mind so you can sleep at night knowing that the first glass of beer out of the keg will taste the same as the last.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

By the time I get to the last glass out of a keg I can't remember HOW to taste...

[topgun3208]

quote:Originally posted by USMC - Retired

By the time I get to the last glass out of a keg I can't remember HOW to taste...

[topgun3208]

quote:Originally posted by USMC - Retired

By the time I get to the last glass out of a keg I can't remember HOW to taste...

my kegs dont last long enuff to remember how they taste, burp [xx(]

[Scott Zuhse]

USMC & Topgun: Hopefully both of you are setup correctly. Because if your system is set up incorrectly now but you eventually do get it right, the beer will taste that much better and you will probably drink twice as much. Scary thought!

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[USMC - Retired]

Scott,
Tap my system right seems up set. Beer my great taste! not drunk as I'm am as think you are. for concern you thanks right we'll be all beer lasts long as.

Sincleary,
MUSC - Retarded

[780425abm]

Hi,

I have decided I have no choice right now other than to go with two seperate gas bottles, 1 with the lager blend the other with the stout blend. Based up this assumption please answer the following questions before I start cutting tubing.

The Setup.

The fridge containing the kegs is directly behind the bar. I shall have a secondary regulator located inside the fridge at the top (it comes with the ******* installed tubing).

I intend to connect the trunk line from this secondary regulator approximately 15ft to the location of the kool rite taps at the bar.

The metal tails from the cool rite tap for connection to the hose travel approximately 1 ft below the height of the bar to what I would imagine will be approximately equal to the level of the keg of just below the top of the keg.

Therefore the only vertical rise the beer will have to travel will be from the bottom of the beer tower tails to the tap the beer flows out off.

1. As I already stated I will be using a secondary regulator for every keg (is this truely necessary?)

1. Assuming I set the Lager mix at a pressure of 30 PSIG at the gas bottle based upon your previous advice what should the pressure be for the individual secondary regulators for lager and wheat beer based on the setup above?

2. Also how much restriction do I need, and please explain why in terms of pressure reduction?

3. Assuming I set the Guinness to 40 PSIG based upon your previous advice what should the pressure be for the secondary regulator for guinness based on the setup above?

4. I assume the restriction will be the same as above?

please bear in mind the kegs are almost level with the beer tap tails.

Miscellaneous questions -

1. Do I need to keep the trunk line at the level of the bar based upon all previous recommendations for setup or can I run it along the floor if there is no room under the bar ?

2. In the future when I can afford the blender what changes will I have to make to install this, I assume it just to be increasing the restriction?

3. Is it correct that it is your intention to have no pressure on the beer at the faucet and for example that it is all reduced from its original pressure for example 12 PSIG at the source to 0 PSIG at the faucet?

4. Is any pressure lost in the trunk line if it is horizontal?

[Scott Zuhse]

First, their is not a blend in a cylinder for ales and lagers. Second, you cannot afford not to use a blender at this time. Third, if you can truly assure that your temperature can be constant 24/7/365, use 100% CO2 for the ales & lagers and hope for the best. Fourth, call our customer service contact number 866 327-4159 and ask for my cell number so that we can discuss this live.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[topgun3208]

quote:Originally posted by mmcscott

USMC & Topgun: Hopefully both of you are setup correctly. Because if your system is set up incorrectly now but you eventually do get it right, the beer will taste that much better and you will probably drink twice as much. Scary thought!

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

I ran my psi up to 11 for the heck of it and holding the glass a bit differently than what I was doing. Getting a bunch of foam but settles down fairly quickly. I think I will leave it there for the time being