Jockey Box troubleshooting

[Wayne]

Scott:

I have the MicroMatic jockey box with 120 ft of coil. We live in Michigan and usually drink Moosehead, that we keep well-iced. Foam remains a recurring problem. The beer looks foam-less going through the line between the keg and the jockey box, and it is liquid coming out of the faucet. But once the beer hits the pitcher or glass, it foams up badly. Often, pitcher is 90% foam, 10% liquid.

A few questions:

Do you think the beer is overcarbonated? (It usually takes us 36 hours to kill a half-barrel.) I have experimented with pressures between 12 and 30 psi at different stages of keg fullness but can't really correlate the pressure with results. If the CO2 is oversaturated into the beer, you wouldn't really see it until the liquid hits air, right?

If oversaturation is the problem, what is the solution for a two-day keg? Should I blow off the pressure from the keg periodically? Should I depressurize overnight if the keg is not being used then?

Once and for all, what is the proper CO2 pressure to use for a jockey box?

Could the faucet be contributing to the problem? I'm using the least expensive faucet that came with the MM jockey box kit. I clean all parts after each use. Would a better faucet provide a better (more-liquid) pour?

Appreciate your help.

Wayne

[Scott Zuhse]

Normally you will require between 30 -35 PSIG to operate a 120' coil system. Yes indeed, you must turn your pressure source off and bleed the head pressure off at the end of the day. Reset the regulator to 12 PSIG and rejuvenate the head space for storage. Over-carbonation will occur if you do not conduct this procedure.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Wayne]

Thanks for your reply. If the beer does become overcarbonated, what are your thoughts on giving the keg a shake to break out some of the CO2, and then releasing the gas? Obviously, you wouldn't want to overdo it (flat beer), but could this be a quick fix for the bottom half/third of a keg that has been under 30-35 psi for 12-18 hours, and is now needed for more regular pours? Or is there a better way to release carbonation?

Wayne

[Scott Zuhse]

Shaking down a keg is effective but not recommended due to going overboard. As you indicated - flat beer. It is a quick fix.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Wayne]

Scott:

You must really tear your hair out answering foam questions all day, every day. A suggestion: collect all the best info into an in-depth Foam FAQ. Then you can refer most of the questions to the FAQ, at least until the poster knows the basics.

I've been looking at Ultraflow's pressure/temperature CO2 solubility table, trying to find an equiulibrium point that fits my needs.
Quick recap: Using jockey box with 120' of tubing, tapping Moosehead (pasteurized), and leaving the keg tapped for several days at a time.

Now I see that, while you need a lot of pressure (you recommend 30-35 psi) to push beer through that much tubing, long-term exposure to that much CO2 overcarbonates the beer.

However, I see from the P/T chart, that a 2.5-volume beer achieves CO2 solubility at 30psi/72dF. So, at this pressure/temp, the beer should stay at the desired carbonation level. This raises a few questions that I hope you will answer:

1. Would it really be a good idea to let the beer temp in the keg (using liquid measurements for accuracy) get as warm as 72dF for a few days? It is pasteurized, so it shouldn't spoil, but are there other factors to consider?

2. With 120' of stainless tubing (surrounded by icewater) in the jockey box, would beer entering the coil at 72dF/30 psi cool down to an optimum drinking temp? Seems like it would, but you probably know for sure.

3. Will the CO2 break out dramatically in the coil as the beer rapidly cools, causing foam at the tap? Or is the flow rate fast enough at 30 psi to prevent this?

4. Do you have the specific CO2 volume for Moosehead lager? I've contacted them but they are slow to respond. Moosehead seems highly carbonated, so if was 2.9, the correct keg beer temp at 30 psi would be 62dF, not 72.

Thanks again for your help.

Wayne

[USMC - Retired]

quote:Originally posted by Wayne

Or is there a better way to release carbonation?

I think I can speak for Myself, Scott and Topgun on this issue...

The absolute best way to release carbonation is to drink the beer and belch excessively. No charge for these words of wisdom... Scott, feel free to add this to your FAQ section on excess carbonation release...


Semper Fi,
The Gunns

"Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

[Wayne]

I'm willing to drink and belch, but I'd rather do it with beer than foam. Scott, can you address my pressure/temp questions when you get a chance?

Wayne

[topgun3208]

I second the motion Chuck [xx(]

"So many great beers, so little time, and only one liver" Mark

[Scott Zuhse]

Belching is one of two methods known to mankind. [^]

Wayne,
Pasteurized products will not spoil at that temperature. If you are simply dispensing glass to glass and not leaving the faucet open for high volume, temperature should be achieved. Issue with ambient beer temperature will be how often you need to replenish the ice in the ice bath. You should check this often to prevent breakout. No problems associated with rapid cooling and the restriction is built in the 120' coil. Moosehead is probably closer to a 2.5 vol beer. Try contacting the distributor. Possibly they can light a fire under their brewery rep. Who is Ultraflow?

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Scott Zuhse]

By the way, thanks for the recommendation on the FAQ. We already have this on our site but is not as specific as some of the answers on from the forum. Time is an issue for now. Hopefully this summer we'll focus on additional development on the forum.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Wayne]

I'll eventually get an an answer on Moosehead carbonation. If you're right and it is closer to 2.5 than 2.9, then it is even more susceptible to overcarbonation, according to the table. Not sure who Ultraflow is; found a force carbonation table thru google, credited to Ultraflow Dispense International. Found the same table from others as well: would be a good addition to the FAQ.

I have settled on a foam reduction strategy that I will try out this weekend. Even though the jockey box would flow better with 30-35 psi, that is just too much CO2 for a multi-hour keg. I am going to start at 15-20 psi for a cold keg, and then slowly increase the pressure as the temp rises. When we won't be drinking for an extended period, I will blow the pressure down to 12 psi. See anything wrong with this?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my specific questions. The jockey box is a lot fun for me and the guys in my family, and we take its proper operation very seriously. Beer, as you know, is no joking matter.

Wayne

[USMC - Retired]

One question... Why use this setup rather than a refrigerated system? It is so simple and cheap to convert an old fridge!

Semper Fi,
The Gunns

"Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

[Wayne]

We vacation on Lake Huron and spend much of our time on the beach and in rented cottages. At non-vacation family events, we're in each other's yards and garages. We need an outdoor and non-electric source of brew that is convenient, reliable, and oh so tasty. This year, we've notified our local supplier that we will need ten 50-liter kegs over a two-week span. He had to convince his distributor to begin delivering Moosehead kegs to the upper section of lower-peninsula Michigan. (We also drink many fine beers in bottle form -- Bell's Oberon, Labatt Blue, Molsons, Goose Island, Sam Adams, Pacifico, etc. -- but the Moose seems to hit the draft spot just right.)

I'd love an electric kegerator for home, and will eventually get/build one, but the portability of the jockey box is hard to beat. Still, fine-tuning the thing to work properly hour after hour, day after day, has become more complicated than I first imagined. Worth it, though.

Go Army!
Wayne

[Scott Zuhse]

Wayne, I hope you have an endless supply of ice. Also, you may be making this a little more difficult then it needs to be. At the low pressure you stated, the beer will barely dribble out of the faucet.

Apply the 30-35 and if you have the keg iced down, simply vent the headspace back to a lower pressure at the end of the day. Next morning simply adjust back up to operating pressure.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Wayne]

Scott:

The “Oscoda Keg Crew” tapped a pre-vacation keg last weekend. We put all our theories, charts and experiences together and recorded our findings. Here’s a compilation of what we have found, after a dozen or so kegs, including our latest observations.

The jockey box is an imperfect way to dispense cold, non-foamy beer. There’s just too much going on for this to be an ideal outdoor method: keg beer temp, jumper cable beer temp, cooling coil beer temp, ideal dispensing CO2 pressure vs. ideal non-overcarbonating CO2 pressure, fullness of keg, waiting periods before and after tapping keg, etc. Micro Matic should provide extensive instructions with every jockey box it sells that give real-world help on making these beasts work. Simple guidelines like, “turn the pressure up to 30-35 psig,” don’t begin to deal with the factors. (No offense: you have been a big help in our quest for understanding. But, frankly, we’ve reached another level on this subject and are no longer satisfied with simple “solutions.” I am not making this more difficult than it needs to be. It’s darn difficult to begin with. You are the Dispense Institute expert and I bow to your knowledge. But the grunts in the field know what works and what doesn’t.)

The jockey box is so much fun that we are willing to invest as much time and effort necessary. When it works properly, it is like an oasis in the desert. And, as long as we’re making progress, and not repeating mistakes, we don’t mind the difficulties.

The higher the pressure, the more you risk foam problems. 30-35 psig gives you great flow through the tap, but unless every other condition is ideal, you often get more foam than beer. And rarely is every other condition ideal.

You need enough pressure to drive the beer through all that tubing, but it isn’t the same amount of pressure at all times. For example, when you first tap the keg (after waiting 2-4 hours for it to settle), the tank-provided CO2 needs time to equalize with the CO2 already in the keg. I’m still not sure what the ideal starting pressure should be. Somewhere around 20 psig. But soon enough, that will not be the ideal pressure. Ideal may be higher or lower, depending on foam levels and temperatures, but it won’t be your first setting.

Releasing pressure, even before the night shutdown, seems to calm the foam problem and help you find the ideal dispensing pressure. After our first pressure release, we were pouring glasses of pure liquid (no foam) at a comfortable rate (16 oz. in 6 seconds). The post-release pressure reading was 12 psig. We were able to stay at this pressure level for the remainder of the day.

You mention that we will need “an endless supply of ice” to make my theories work. Guess what? You need an almost endless supply of ice no matter what methods you use! Attention all prospective jockey box buyers: you will spend $15 to $30 on ice for each keg, depending on how long you want to keep the beer flowing. You can buy a lot of beer for $15-$30, so you really have to love draft to go through this much trouble and expense. You can let the keg temp increase (use less ice) but that puts you into a whole other pressure situation that gets complicated fast.

The jockey box is a low-tech, expensive, frustrating mother of a great way to drink beer. I’m willing to share experiences and methods with anyone on this subject.

Thanks,
Wayne

[Scott Zuhse]

Wayne,

These devices were never intended for the application you are attempting. Beer distributors use these all across the country at major special events to dispense 100's of kegs within hours. They have used these successfully for years and have no issues other than neglecting to clean them from time to time.

They were never intended to be used for overnight or day to day events where the volume was to be relatively low. Even cold plate systems were not intended to be used from day to day.

Again, if the Moosehead has approximately 2.5 vols. of CO2, and if the keg beer temperature is 60 F, you would need 23 PSIG to gain perfect equilibrium such that the gas cannot leave solution or the beer absorb excess solution. Not knowing what temperature your beer is at, but guessing that it may very well be 80 F (lots of ice on the coils!) if it is simply sitting on the sand at the lake front, you would probably need close to 34 or 35 PSIG to gain this equilibrium.

A suggestion would be to use blend gas and simply risk the beer going flat. If interested, let us know and we'll fill you in. As to providing instructions. We would be happy to other than to do so for every situation that these devices may be applied to would create an instruction encyclopedia versus a simple manual.

Scott Zuhse, Instructor Micro Matic Dispense Institute

[Wayne]

The jockey boxes may not be intended for multi-day use, but they certainly can work that way– if you can figure out the proper temperature and pressure relationships. (We don’t put the kegs in the sand. They’re iced down in a tub, thus the high ice costs.)

An encyclopedia of directions isn’t necessary, just a handful of simple rules and suggestions. Micro Matic could do its current and future jockey box purchasers a great service by providing this information in a simple format on the website. And if you and the company truly believe that the units’ uses are very limited, then this should also be made clear on the website.

Thanks again, Scott, for helping as much as you could. Fellow jockey box owners: Let’s share the information we have learned on our own and make these beasts as useful as possible.

Wayne

[USMC - Retired]

OK now this really has me wondering. If your icing down the keg anyway, why use a jockey box at all? Why not go with a tap setup like this...

http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-...id-EZ-TAP.html

Semper Fi,
The Gunns

"Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

[Wayne]

We keep the kegs iced but I doubt that the beer is staying at 38 degrees. The kegs are outside (in the shade) and covered with an insulating blanket, but we’re not adding ice every hour of the day, so I’m sure there’s some temp fluctuation, especially on hot days.

Still, you bring up a good point. Direct from the keg dispensing would be great when the beer is calm and cold. Do these systems have their own foam challenges?

Wayne

[USMC - Retired]

Not like what your facing now. I can not speak from experience since I do not own one, but my best guess would be, once your get them balanced you should only require slight adjustments for temp fluctuations from time to time as your ice melts and you add more. I still have a hard time envisioning how you can have access to that much ice but not to electrical power.

Sinde note: Scott, is the coupler/tower/faucet portion of this system available without the CO2 bottle/regulator/gas line? It would be nice to have on hand for tail gate parties and such but I hate to spend money on stuff I already own just to let it sit around and gather dust when not in use.

Semper Fi,
The Gunns

"Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

[Wayne]

Come to Oscoda, MI, and I'll give you the complete picture (and a beer). We sleep in small, nice on-the-beach cottages but spend 18 hours a day outside golfing, swimming and drinking. We buy food, beer and ice from local markets. Pretty typical summer situation in this area.

Wayne

[topgun3208]

sounds almost like what we used to do in Ocean City MD when I was a teen, coolers of suds on the beach and getting burnt to a crisp. ah young, dum and full of @#$ glad them daze are over lol

"So many great beers, so little time, and only one liver" Mark