Relocate Haier Temperature Control

[OldState]

Hello, great forum!

I have a home bar with a Haier Kegerator built in and the tap tower coming thought the lower bar top. I got the kegerator for free from my company and bar was built to provide plenty ventilation.

My problem is the temperature knob is on the back. So if I want to change it I must take the tower off and pull out the unit.

Is there a way to relocate the knob? Should I get a new temperature control? Any ideas would be very appreciated.

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Welcome, I'd get a External Temperature Controller (plug-in type) and be done easily, just plug in and set to MAX cold and you should be good, others say you need to bypass thermostat by connecting wires coming from thermostat, my opinion you really don't need to bypass unless you plan on super cold beer (<34 degrees). If you want to transplant thermostat there once was a member who moved to inside but best to just find someplace outside. Fairly simple cut wires, connect like to like with Romex and few wire nuts and you should be good.
You have to define "plenty ventilation", even if super wide open space, no matter how wide open, unit may overheat, enclosed unit is an enclosed unit, if you have an area above unit open to air, along with 3-5 inch opening on sides, it might be enough. Most built-in units have fans to "vent" hot air, if hot air isn't vented, heat can build up causing problems with hardware and stuff you are trying to cool.
Don't forget the PVC pipe between tower and unit and fan or decent tower cooler, also search up on balance, foam and newbie.
KB

[OldState]

Thanks for the reply KillianBoy. This is my first try at draft beer at home.

There is about 1 1/2" around the side and top but in the back there is about 5" and there is a 4" ventilation gap above between the lower bar top and reverse side of the bar front (hard to verbalize, may need to take a pic). I feel heat venting up.

Bottom line is that the unit doesn't run that often. I have a home theater in the room and during a 2+ hr movie it may go on once, and sometimes not at all. I always have two 1/6 kegs and some other bottles in there which provides a lot of mass.

Beer usually pours at 38 deg but the air temp is always 40-42. The bottom of the kegs must be several degrees colder than the top. I keep a bottle of water and depending on where its kept, the temp will read 38-42.

I have noticed a haze in styles that shouldn't have it, like Sam Adams Lager. I have a little more than a 1/4 of adjustment left on the knob and I got it cold enough to freeze a can of soda before the beer lines were hooked up (I backed it off when I hooked up the beer)

I ran the beer lines through copper tubing that runs into the box and elbows to right above the cold plate. I then wrapped those in insulation. If haven't used the tap in 15 minutes I still get a 1/3 glass of foam so I think a tower cooling system is required. I'm running the 5" beer lines the tower came with tower (aftermarket stainless double tap) and pushing the beer at 10psi. Carbonation level seems fine.

From 1997 to 2000 I worked as a brewer in a brewpub. We pushed our beer at 15psi through a 50' glycol cooled trunk line at 36 degrees without issues. For nitro we used an inline pump to boost pressure but I cant remember to what. I will be putting Guinness on as soon as the 1/6 kegs are available and will have to figure out that pressure.

I may just get a temp controller. Is the Brewer Edge the only with a submersible probe? I see identical looking units but they never list submersible probe.

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Look through forum further, every beer needs to be balanced (that has a different v/v), not every beer will be 15 PSI, it depends on temperature of beer (not air), this is what is called balance. 10 PSI might be fine if your beer is 33-35 degrees (depending on v/v of the beer), that is where the the 1st glass foam is coming from, not only warm tower, once you get balanced, you still might have foam because of fast flow of beer and you may have to go longer line.
Yes, bottom is colder, this difference will cause problems with temperature of beer in glass for 1-4 glass, that is why you need a fan or working tower cooler, once you get a fan inside then you can get an accurate beer temperature. Don't think copper and insulation will cut it, air cooling is the most effective especially with a table mount, decent tower cooler will help.
Up to you about ventilation, the numbers you are posting is what the companies recommend if freestanding, once you put a lid over everything, stuff will heat up, that is why the say not the enclose this model, up to you.
If you have haze in some beers, it might be dirty gear, don't think is the temperature of the beer.
I think the BE has the only submersible probe, you really don't need a submersible probe, think the analog model has a 3 degree differential, which should be fine.
Your cycle times are strange, should be about 60 minutes on, 15 off, if off longer, might be the auto defrost is kicking on, ETC will solve this problem.
Guinness might be available in the 20 liter (1/6) in your area, be aware it is a different coupler from 1/2, beer gas should be at least 30+ PSI.
Key is open door only when necessary, set thermostat no higher than 3/4 full and set PSI to v/v at beer temperature. After I balance beer, through whole keg, I don't open door once or adjust temperature.
KB

[OldState]

Again, great info. Thanks. I will listen for the compressor cycles more closely, but I never felt it was running too much or over heating. I also have a mini fridge and a wine cooler in the bar, so maybe I'm hearing one of those, though the wine cooler seems to hardly ever run and the fridge is the loudest. If it dies, I will buy a higher quality one. I got this one because it was free with company points, but brand new.
The ETC should also allow me to mount the controller in a discreet yet convenient spot in the bar.

Not sure why I saw chill haze, but the lines are very new and I keep them VERY clean. Chill haze is usually a result of filtering beer to warm. I would imaging Boston Beer Co has that figured out . I will look into balancing the beer line and psi.

I have seen a lot on forums about carbonation volumes with certain beers regarding flavor profile but honestly didn't look to hard at it. When I was working in the industry I never heard that discussed among brewers from any sized operation, so I thought it was internet myth. I can't remember what the co2 volume was that we used, but we had one for regular beers and one for nitro beers that we "carbonated" with beer gas. Actually we pushed every beer with beer gas to the taps. We kept straight CO2 for for force carbonation only. I don't remember a lot of discussion about CO2 volume, but we had a standard we used to keep things uniform.

When I can get Guinness I may push all my beer with beer gas unless there is an issue I haven't considered.

As for beer line length, temp and PSI, I will look into it that more. That stuff at my brewpub was settled before I got there and I don't remember any discussion about how they figured it out. Our beer lines were definitely a larger internal diameter though. That was my only experience with draft beer and I have been out of it for 14 years.

I was pretty sure my little bit of foam was because of the tower temp but now you have me thinking. I actually just realized last night that my one keg was at 8 PSI. It's still tastes well carbonated and was not foaming after the first ounce or so. I may get the tower cooler going to before I mess with beer line lengths just too verify what's causing what.

Are you suggesting another fan as well as the tower cooling fan? I'm pretty sure their is no fan in the unit, just the cold plate which defrosts into an evaporation tray.

Thanks again

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Yeah, the Haier only has a cold plate and no fan, as I state in my newbie thread, start with a fan, it will guarantee even air circulation after the 1st glass, 2nd-3rd should give you the best approximate temperature of the beer. Once you get everything worked out, then you start experimenting with tower coolers (either buy one or make one). Without any circulation the bottom of the keg will get extremely cold as beer passes through warm parts of the system, it will warm up, not giving the accurate beer temperature. Most likely beer is colder than 38.
OK, "balancing the beer line" and balancing beer are totally different, balancing beer line is the use of restriction tables to figure out using v/v of the beer, which is based on the temperature of beer, which will give you PSI, then with this PSI, ID and length of beer line, for the use is figured out. for most home applications, 4-5 feet is recommended, most here will use 7+ feet to slow the flow, this prevents heavy foam in the first couple of glasses. Balancing beer is the first part of above, v/v of beer, temperature of beer (using carbonation charts) will give you the correct PSI setting. We balance beer so the beer stays at the proper carbonation for the life of the keg, for bars an such, it may be 1 to 3 nights, for home dispensers, it can be 1-12 weeks. A beer at 8 PSI, most likely will go flat after 1 week (unless the beer is at under 32 degrees). So for home dispensers, it not only for the flavor profile but carbonation of the beer over the long run.
If you want beer to have a good flavor profile, most will drink between 38-42 degrees, any colder, most beers lose flavor.
Beer gas is best, but a wholly different from pure CO2, carbonation charts need to match type of beer gas you are using and will be higher, again if not beer will go flat.
KB

[OldState]

I will get some accurate beer temp readings and go from there. I'm trying to shed 10lb of winter weight so I didn't want to drink any beer last night and didn't want to toss it either.

I definitely had one keg at 8lbs for over 2 months and it's still well carbonated. So either the beer is colder than I thought or my pressure guage is not accurate. 15 PSI pushed the beer WAY to fast.

15PSI is what we kept the head pressure on the bright tanks at from which the beer lines were connected directly too. I figured 15 psi was ok there but not in my home set up because of the long length of our lines.

As for the submersible probe I was thinking that would allow a liquid temp reading that would be more similar to the beer temp.

I somehow missed your newbie thread but found it and read it. I can ask any other questions there. Thanks

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
I have frozen kegs (actually separated with water freezing like a frozen pond with beer below) without air circulation and still poured 38 degree beer (and froze bottles of water). If you haven't had any fan then most likely colder than you think and beer is warmed as it travel up to warm tower and beer line.
"Actually we pushed every beer with beer gas to the taps. We kept straight CO2 for for force carbonation only." From what I know of all dispensing systems, the beer comes bottom, through spear, to coupler then directly to faucet. The gas is applied from top of kegs applying PSI according to v/v of said beer, I don't know of any "inline pump to boost pressure" or any other way to dispense (pros please chime in). Force carbonation, from what I have read, is a way of adding CO2 to beer "unnaturally" over a short period of time to hasten wait time before dispensing. So by your statement above, you force carbonated the beer with pure CO2 and dispensed with beer gas. Most brewery type bars will use a blender to mix the the 2 gases, so you could hook up a regulator before blender and you can force carbonate at say 40+ PSI, then apply 15+ of blended gas after the blender for dispense but I have never heard of any sort of gas pump or bright tanks.
For you get pour Guinness, you have to use what they call "Guinness gas", which is a high nitro mix than regular beer gas, this basically is the only beer that uses the high nitro mix, most other beers can benefit from use of beer gas (less foam problem), but still must be balanced for v/v but still will be above 15 PSI, I think the normal range for low nitro beer gas is 18-25 PSI, its all about the amount of CO2 applied to the beer that keeps beer carbonated.
I think you really have to vent hot air out of the cabinet where you have all three built into, it is a matter of wills-hot and cold. One day you will find beer or wine not cold enough, turn thermostat colder, compressor runs longer warming cabinet, the next few days not as cold, turn colder, inside will get hotter, eventually the heat will overcome cold. You only have about 1 inch of Styrofoam on sides of the refrigerator units, once insulation is warmed it gets harder and harder to keeps thing cool inside. You may not feel anything or hear anything but the heat is probably there.
You can get the same stability from a air probe. Water probe (with a differential of 1 degree) will hold water and air temperature within 1-2 degrees but unit will cycle on and off more, air probe (with a differential of 3-5 will hold air temperature at that level and still keep liquid temperature within 1-2 degrees and also will cycle less, up to you.
KB
I've been reading up on bright tanks, I'd forget any comparison with kegged beer, if you were serving directly from the bright tank, it is a totally different system from keg beer, get some sort of air circulation inside and see what the temperature of the 2nd-3rd glass is, before doing anything else.

[OldState]

Ok, big tangent, but to clarify our situation at the brewpub....

In about 1998 our gas supplier contacted us and said they were offering "beer gas" which was 75% nitrogen and 25% CO2. I guess that is what you are calling Guinness gas and that term may have been also used (it's been 14 years). They said brew pubs were using it to push beer to the taps as it could be used for nitrogen beers and wouldn't over carbonate our other beers from too much top pressure (we sometimes had bartenders/managers messing with the gas pressure at night). We ordered tanks of both.

Most breweries carbonate their beer at least partially from "force carbonation" and if they say they don't they are full of BS. Natural carbonation saves money and gas so they will try to get as much CO2 in the beer as possible and top off the levels with CO2. To naturally carbonate we simply closed the gas valves in the conditioning tanks during the last day couple day before we filtered or moved to the bright tanks. This would allow pressure to build up (not much since primary fermentation was basically done and the beer had been moved ofF the yeast in the fermentation tank). The beer would pick up gas but not enough to be fully carbonated...maybe 85%. Then we would finish by connecting gas to a "carbonation stone" inserted into a hole on the bottom side of the bright tank (the tank you hold finished beer in to serve from or package). A carbonation stone is actually a steel rod that looks like lava stone. The gas line is hooked into the stone and gas bubbles through the rod in the beer. You then start to vent the gas when the head pressure reaches a certain point (I can't remember the PSI). You check it every 15 minutes from the sample valve with a gadget to check how much CO2 is dissolved.

The one draw back is then you have to filter and move the beer to the bright tanks under pressure; so pressuring the receiving tank and let it bleed off gas as it fills. We could actually move the beer thought the filter (we had a wine filter that used square filter pads in a press) without the pump on...just using gas pressure.

The way beer is served from bright tanks in small brew pubs is by hooking the beer line directly to the bottom valve of the tank and hooking up a gas line to provide head pressure; in our case 15lbs. For Stout served throughout a stout faucet, we bought a inline pump that boosted pressure in the line to the tap. We had to do this because the pressure release valve on the bright tank would blow at less than the pressure we needed in the line. Otherwise we would have to keg it. We served out of 14 and 7 barrel tanks...so it would have taken a lot of kegs.

We did have 2 dedicated keg lines I don't remember the pressure setting to be different but they could have been. Again, it's been a while and I haven't thought about this stuff until recently.

I'm not 100% but I don't think we actually carbonated Stouts, etc with the nitrogen mix as you would need colder temps and higher pressures to dissolve nitrogen in a liquid. Actually, I'm pretty sure we didn't because I don't think we could have if we wanted to. I do know the co2 level was far less in those styles. The cask pulled cascading effect comes from pushing the lower carbonated beer at high pressure through the sparkler in the stout faucet tip.

In any event I don't remember having issues with the draft beer except when the power would go out and the glycol cooler/pump would stop working. Then we just had to let the lines cool down when we got power back. One time the glycol pump broke as well. No beer until, we fixed it.

For my purposes now, the local gas company said they could fill my tank with what they called beer gas, and you are calling Guinness gas. I assumed they would fill the tank I had. I did check the pressure rating from the manufacturer of my tank and they are identical to was is required for nitrogen and blended gas. In any event, I want Guinness on tap badly and will do what ever I have to to make it work. I waited years to have my home bar and its finally done!


Do you have a ETC you prefer?

I tried to post a pic of the ventilation situation but I couldn't upload it.

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Apples and oranges, long draw/bright tank vs short draw/keg, unless you want to use a long draw/bright tank again, forget everything about how you ran before (sorry I didn't read your 1st 6 paragraphs carefully, I understand why but it doesn't matter for a short draw/keg system). Installer will use 70/30 (high nitrogen) for 50-100 foot runs for every beer, it depends, but for short draw, it might be best to use 70-30 (high CO2), both are considered beer gas but the one you want for non-stout is the low nitro/high CO2 mix.
Up to you to try and run Guinness and another beer using the high nitro mix, same with ventilation, no need to post pictures, if you feel it will work give it a try, all I ask is if it doesn't work, post back and report, no it didn't work, if it works say so also, this will help membership immensely.

I myself, I would choose the analog, it's cheap and functional but if you want form, get the digital, just that you really don't need to put it in water, just hang at top of kegerator out of the way airflow. I would get analog, hide it away, get a nice digital temperature display and mount on door, run sensor wire inside or remote, both form and function without much fuss.
KB

[OldState]

Thanks for the help. Yeah, I realize its different though I was surprised how temperamental a little system would be. Sorry for the dissertation/tangent....I just thought I would answer your question.

As soon as the local beer distributer says they can get me 1/6ths of Guinness I will make a large purchase of all the stuff I need; Guinness dispensing gear, ETC, 10 beer lines, etc. I will start building the fans this weekend if I can.

[KillianBoy]

OldState,
Sorry to be rude, I started a search after the post and came up with so many ways bright tanks can be used, legal here, illegal there, can be used as primary, should be used as secondary, etc.
I don't think you can use a single thing from your old job to help you with short draw/keg. Different ID of beer line, essential to balance for v/v.
I assume you mean 10 foot beer line and not 10 separate beer lines, you can just buy a small battery powered fan just to circulate air for now, with just this you can check the 2nd glass and see what temperature is.
KB

[OldState]

Not rude. You have been very helpfull. My "dissertation" was a sidebar just to answer your questions since you were unfamiliar with the type of system I used and to address your comments on forced carbonation. Bright tanks have nothing to do with a commercial or home bar....just brewpubs.

I was just surprised at how many variables there were at play to make a small draft sytem act so differently. After we were set up at the brewpub, it was basically plug and play there after so I wasn't expecting so much tweaking to be needed.

[Whiteleg]

I think that with such a question, it is better to contact the air conditioning repair service. My uncle had air conditioning in the car, and he didn't have climate control set up. He tried to set it up for a very long time, but it didn't work. Then he decided to contact a qualified air conditioning service. They helped my brother solve this problem within an hour. In addition, they explained how the functions in the air conditioner work, which he did not even know about. Therefore, I believe that it is better to contact professionals with your question.

[jeromar3]

Hello there! It sounds like you have a fantastic home bar setup with the Haier Kegerator and the tap tower. Having the temperature knob on the back can indeed be a bit inconvenient. However, there are a few possible solutions to consider.

One option is to explore the feasibility of relocating the temperature knob to a more accessible location. This would involve some modifications to the kegerator, so it's important to ensure that it can be done safely and without affecting its performance. Consulting the user manual or contacting Haier's customer support could provide helpful guidance specific to your model.

Alternatively, you could consider getting a new temperature control unit that is designed to be mounted in a more convenient location. There may be aftermarket temperature control options available that are compatible with your refrigerator. Researching online or reaching out to specialized retailers could provide you with suitable recommendations.

Remember, when making any modifications or additions to your kegerator, it's important to prioritize safety and proper ventilation to ensure optimal performance. I hope these ideas help, and I wish you all the best in finding a solution that works well for your home bar setup!