Vissani - Diagnosis Refrigeration

[dukegrad]

All,
I have been researching the many posts on the Vissani to diagnose my issue:
The unit won't cool at all.

A great thread that I have followed / tried is:

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-en/kegerators-kegerator-kits-home/4892-vissani-mod-howto-pics.html

As noted in the link above I have tried turning the temperature limiter (screw on the temperature gauge). Over multiple days I have tried many turns in both directions but no luck.

The things I note are the following (I am not experienced with refrigeration so please excuse the poor descriptions):

1. Compressor (big round device on lower back) runs...a lot
2. Compressor is very hot (hand on it more than 2-3 secs hurts)
3. The white plate in the frig (condenser?) is room temperature
4. I can hear liquid moving in that plate

I assume my issue is not with the temperature limitations but mechanical failure in the refrigeration functions themselves. I just don't know how to diagnose which part might be the culprit.

NOTE: I have had the unit for about 1 year but haven't used it much. It "worked" but never got the beer cold enough for real use. I believe that was primarily the default temperature limitation as noted by many. Now that I am trying to use that mod to make this work, I discovered that the overall refrigeration seems blown.

My goal is to see if this can be diagnosed and possibly repaired at a reasonable cost. I would really like to the use the unit as is. If that approach ends up being too costly I will then move to harvest the keg parts and look to covert another, better frig unit.

Your help is much appreciated.

[golfguy1982]

Vissani

I also have found one of these systems on sale at a Home Depot clearance for $230.00

Should I take it back???

[pvs6]

If stored for long period without use dirt may have collected on the heat transfer coils in back. Check to be sure you have good air flow back there. No doesn't sound good to me. You said you had it a year. Was that new or used when you got it? About a year new, is it still under warrantee? If it is blown then building a new one or a new replacment maybe cheaper than a repair bill.

[dukegrad]

If stored for long period without use dirt may have collected on the heat transfer coils in back. Check to be sure you have good air flow back there. No doesn't sound good to me. You said you had it a year. Was that new or used when you got it? About a year new, is it still under warrantee? If it is blown then building a new one or a new replacment maybe cheaper than a repair bill.

Thanks for the reply. Its very clean in the back and stands out in the open so air flow is fine. I actually had it plugged in most of that time (mostly with an empty keg). I had bought it new (impulse purchase on sale) when HD had them out last year. I believe I am just past the 1 year warranty, and wouldn't be able to find the receipt anyway. Worst case the parts are a decent part of the initial purchase and I will reuse them.

After purchase and issues with cooling I found this site and realized the poor quality of the frig. I got busy and sort of left it alone trying it now and then with kegs that could be served warmer (e.g. Sierra Nevada Pale). Now I want to get a working kegerator, especially one that truly gets cold. Hoping there is a reasonable fix but expecting to have to go with the conversion of something new.

Any other thoughts are most welcome.

[cm11599ps]

There are two screws that you can turn. There's one right behind the dial and another on the right side. Try turning the one on the right side counterclockwise.

[dukegrad]

I also have found one of these systems on sale at a Home Depot clearance for $230.00

Should I take it back???

Depends on a few things (IMHO)

1. Does it do the basic cooling?
Mine is not currently doing that but out of the box they all seem to have worked.

2. How handy are you?
I would definitely do the upfront mod work in link on my first post. Its pretty easy, especially the temp regulator adjustment. That and even the micro fan can be added without voiding a warranty. If that works then you got a great deal. If not and you are new to this you'll have to read more to see how involved in mods / conversions you want to get vs. shelling out for a better, more $ unit.

[dukegrad]

There are two screws that you can turn. There's one right behind the dial and another on the right side. Try turning the one on the right side counterclockwise.

Yeah...I have done that as noted (multiple times and in both directions). This seems to be a bigger issue that that compressor/condensor/whatever in the refrigeration system is shot. The back plate doesn't even get cool let alone cold.

[pvs6]

You said the compressor runs a lot. Lot is not constant so it does cycle off some times? Assuming yes, how long before it starts again? I think there are 2 reasons for the compressor to stop, 1) thermostat reaches the set temp and turns it off or 2) compressor gets so hot it trips the heat breaker in the compressor which turns it off till it cools down enough to re-set the breaker. If the thermostat malfunctions and is telling the compressor to run constantly and over heats forcing the heat breaker to shut off the compressor you would expect something like the compressor runs for 1/2 to 3/4 hour shuts off and cools for 5 to ten minutes before starting up again. That's only generalization, what I'm implying is that it runs for an extra long time cuts out for a really short one and then runs about the same extra long time followed by a short one etc. so as to seem that it wants to run always but just needs a quick break to do it once in a while. If however the thermostat still has control of the compressor and is doing the cycling then the temp set point is getting reached to cause it to turn off. The temp. sensing probe for the thermostat is on the back of the cooling plate. You said you turned Both set screws a lot on the thermostat. Turning them too hard or to far can damage them and you may end up with a set point at 60 F. or one so low 32 F. that the compressor runs all the time and forces the heat breaker on the compressor to cut it off. If the thermostat is working correctly as well as the compressor but you still aren't getting cool I think again there are 2 likely reasons. 1) you could have an air leak of room temp air in to the unit. A good way to check this is get a strong flash light and place it inside the unit turned on. Close the door turn off the lights in the room and look all around the door seam for light escaping. The second and likely your case is a loss of freon. That causes low cooling and since it cools the compressor might account for over heating too. But there could still be enough freon left that has leaked out yet to account for the movement you hear in the chill plate. To rule out the thermostat as the cause after checking for leaks of room air I would by pass the thermostat and tell the compressor to run constantly. At that point if it cools again you know it a bad thermostat and need a new one or an external temp. controller. If it acts the same as it's acting now then quite likely your low on freon. You've had the thermostat off before so you know what it looks like. There are 3 wires running to it, one is the ground and connects to the housing and the other two connect in to the thermostat. Unplug those two and connect them together directly that will run the compressor constantly. Of course you know that you unplug the wall plug before doing this but as a disclaimer that must be stated. I think you said you have an empty keg in there now. For your test you will want to take that out. Air is a great insulator and you have a bunch of dead air space in the unit which you will want to fill while preforming your test so you can get results as quick as possible. Look around to see what you have on hand. Ideally if you have some extra fiberglass insulation you could stuff into a garbage bag is best. But even wadded up newspapers in the bag will work but foam rubber would be better in the bag. Be creative but cut out the dead air in there. Once you have hot wired the 2 thermostat. leads together pack the inside with your insulated garbage bag to fill up all the space. Plug the unit back in sit down in your chair with a cool one or two and listen for the next hour. I should have provably said that you should pull the unit out away from anything and turn it around so the back is facing you in the chair thus you can hear it better and also monitor the heat on the compressor so if you think it too hot you can pull the plug. But I've put a 45 F. keg in mine before and compressor ran for two hours plus cooling it down so you should be able to do an hour test on yours. But since you don't know the health of your unit I don't think I'd leave it un-attend for more that a minute or two. After the hours up open the door and feel the cool plate. If you're getting cold now you know where the problem is with your thermostat. Replace with a external controller and leave the thermostat hot wired. If still not cold it's low on freon and likely junk but I did come across a guy who said he found a way of recharge it himself that worked. If you do this test and come to the conclusion that's it's low on freon and get a hold of me I might tell you what he did to recharge it for around $40.00 cost to make f\x. Did that last sentence convey? The cost is of the F\x not me wanting a bribe.

[dukegrad]

pvs6,
Thank you for the detailed post. Exactly the kind of diagnosing guidance I was looking for.

I read through a few times and have put the plan into action:

1. Rechecked the seals on the door (visual and with the flashlight test) and they look good. I agree to start with the easy / obvious.
2. Pulled the thermo wires and hotwired them to run the compressor full time (unplugged for the mod of course)
3. Put some "space eaters" into the unit (styro foam and insulation)
4. Did a hand temperature test on the compressor and noted it was cooler than room temperature (is there some freon that would sit in the compressor to cause that?)
5. Plugged the unit in, spun it around and have been sitting vigil, checking the compressor temp every few minutes

waits and samples other cold (bottled) beverages......
noted that at 30 mins in the compressor is only slightly warmer than my hand, much different (read cooler) than when I posted before

At 65 mins I stopped the test. Compressor was starting to get warm / hot to the touch. I opened the door and put my hand on the cooling plate. It was sort of cool but not cold. Definitely cooler than it had been when I first posted (it was room temperature then) but not very cold and hard to see how its going to drop the temperature to cool a keg.

Soooooo given this result what is your suspicion? Low freon? Bad temp sensor? Combination of both?

Thanks for the help so far.

[pvs6]

Well I think that from your test results you,ve proved that the fault lays in the cooling system and not temp. controller thermostat. I would think that it is pointing to being low on freon since you found some cooling but not anything like it should have been. I think there are 2 other things that could cause your kind of test results but not as likely as a freon loss. First the freon lines from the compressor to the cool plate and inside the plate are somewhat soft in that they can be bent or dented by a small amount of force being applied. If the lines get bent or dented that can cause enough restriction to flow to produce lower cooling. This type of damage is most likely to be found inside the unit. Look for dents to the lines inside your cool plate if there were one it should be quite obvious to you so if your not sure after looking than there are no dents. Check the 2 lines running from the plate to the back where they exit, look for dents and sharp bends that pinch the line closed or close to it. The next possible cause for reduced cooling could be that on some units there is a fan that blows air over the heat transfer coils on the back outside of unit above the compressor. It aids in removing the heat that is generated cooling the keg box, if it fails cooling is reduced. However though I'm not positive I don't think your unit has this fan but I could be wrong. I"ve got a 1/2 barrel a gallon shy of full in mine so I'm not eager to pull it out and turn it around and look just yet. I'll go on line and see if I can't find the schematics first. You've showed yourself to be skilled with tools and able to take on mechanical tasks so you may want to remove the cover back there and look for a fan, I should think it would only be a few sheet metal screws to be removed. As you know but for anyone reading this ALWAYS unplug the unit from the wall plug before doing any work or inspection of the unit. If you do that and I'm wrong and there is a fan then plug it back in and verify that it runs when the compressor runs. If you do take the cover plate back there off you may want to also see if you can find a freon recharge nipple. It would look like the air stem on your car's wheel but is metal, it would likely be found on the freon line but sometimes is at the compressor. I feel fairly certain that there isn't one to be found. Ruling out a restriction to flow in the freon system and the fan issue (either absence of fan or a fan that runs with compressor running) It seems to me that the culprit is a freon leak that caused greatly reduced cooling capacity to the point of being useless. But I'm not trained in HVAC and certainly no expert so my opinion should only be considered as a guess at best. If however it was low on freon I think you may have a very hard time finding a licensed repair Tech. who would be willing to recharge a closed system like you have since by Law he is required to find and fix the leak before recharging and I think the cost would be greater then a new unit.

[dukegrad]

pvs6,
thanks again for the detailed post. I have been traveling for a few days and just got back to read it and try out the last few looks (e.g. pinched freon lines, damage to the plates, a fan?). I will take a look and let you know. However like you I am doubtful this is the issue.

Will post over next day are so on results.

[THE ICEMAN]

First let me address a few things... It's normal for the compressor to run hot. If it's cold it either isn't running or the unit is overcharged, not likely. It's doubtful there will be any service valves on a unit of that size.

Anyway, from your descriptions I would guess the unit is either low on refrigerant or there is a restriction in the capillary tubing or drier. In either case you will need to get someone that is familiar with those units to determine what is going on & to repair it. A simple A/C company cannot do it.


THE ICEMAN

[dukegrad]

Thanks again to all for the advice and input.

I went over the cooling system looking for kinks / blocks / breaks etc but found nothing obvious. I did notice a slight oily residue on the lines near the compressor. Also, no fan on the unit so no break down there.

I am now 95+% certain that there is a small freon/cooling oil leak. I happened to have an appliance repair guy out working on an ice machine (under warranty). I asked him to take a look and the first thing he noticed was the oily residue on the compressor / lines. His opinion was it was the cooling fluid leaking but he made clear that it was not his area of expertise. We discussed getting it repaired and it sounded like fixing a closed system was not going to be cheap. He did say that most appliances had a one year full warranty but typically a 5 year warranty on the compressor / sealed cooling system.

Next stop I called Magic Chef (maker of the Vissani) to discuss warranty. Of course my unit is exactly one month past the one year warranty. The rep at MC said I could take it in to a certified repair shop and they would send a replacement compressor if that was the problem. Still leaves me paying labor for the diagnosis / swap / freon recharge. I am guessing that wont' be cheap either. I am going to investigate but not expecting much from this route.

I welcome thoughts / feedback on the diagnosis and any suggestions from here. Specifically:

1. Did I miss anything?
2. Any thoughts on how to get an inexpensive repair?
3. Any thoughts on how to get Home Depot / Magic Chef to give my money back?

Assuming this refrigerator is dead, what are your suggestions for a new frig I can convert. Since I have kegerator parts from the Vissani I am just looking for the best frig to convert. My starting specs are:

A. Similar size & shape & style to the Vissani frig
B. Must hold up to a 1/2 keg
C. Must get and stay reliably cold (I am willing to do the computer fan mod to help with air circulation in the main area and tower)
D. Reasonably straight forward to convert for a tower faucet and CO2 can on the outside
E. Should be able to have the wheels from the Vissani attached without damaging the unit
F. Total price should be at or less than repairing the current unit ($200 +/-?)

FYI, I am intrigued by the freezer option but see two trade offs that I don't like:
a. aesthetics - this unit sits out in view behind my cooper & wood bar so it needs to look decent
b. keg loading - I lift a full 1/2 fairly well but it seems like a PITA / opportunity to break something in the freezer etc....

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[pvs6]

At this point you're pointing in all directions as low freon. There is no recharge nipple in a closed system. You're HVAC guy must by law first fix the leak before re-charging, and in all lkelyhood would be more than a new unit.

[dukegrad]

Thanks all for the comments.

As I feared / suspected I am calling this a dead frig due to the freon / cooling system leak.

I am going to harvest the keg components and look to do a conversion at some point in the future using the parts. I am leaning towards doing an upright freezer conversion so will be researching that for a future project. I have already been shopping for units as this will be a good winter project. I have a second location where the aesthetics don't matter as much. Looking forward to reusing my gear and having draft beer everywhere that matters to me.

For my current location, I have been checking out Cragslist and have a line on a used double tap Perlick at a decent price ($350). I am going to look at it / purchase it tonight so keep your fingers crossed that its in good shape.

Anything I should make sure to check on unit before buying? I have the guy plugging it in today to make sure it gets cold and will be taking a thermometer to test. Other than that what would you pay close attention to before buying?

Also any thoughts on transporting it? Should I keep it upright during the move?